89. The Ultimate Guide to American Express Points with Kamree Price

Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel the world. I'm your host, Devon Gimbel, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest untapped asset if you know how to leverage them. Ready to dive into the world of credit card points and miles so you can travel more, travel better, and travel often? Let's get started.

Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast! Now, if you have been in the points and miles world for more than a minute, you probably know that this is a game that is constantly changing. New rewards cards get introduced, airline and hotel loyalty programs change, sometimes for the worse unfortunately, and points earning and redeeming opportunities come and go. 

But one thing that hasn't changed in all my years of using points for travel is the importance of having transferable points. In fact, I think anybody moderately serious about this hobby should have access to at least one of the five major transferable points currencies because of the value these points offer. 

But sometimes it can be hard to know which of the five main transferable points currencies, that is, Amex Membership Rewards Points, Chase Ultimate Rewards Points, Citi Thank You Points, Capital One Miles, or Bilt Points, will be the most useful for you, or what the differences are between these points ecosystems, their points earning cards, and their unique points redemption opportunities. And that is why we have been doing deep dives into each of the major transferable points currencies on the podcast. 

We've already covered the Chase, Bilt, and Capital One ecosystems, and today it's American Express's turn. So stay tuned to learn all about the world of Amex, including an overview of the rewards cards they offer, what to know about the ins and outs of qualifying for American Express cards, and how Amex membership rewards points can be particularly valuable when it comes to booking award travel. 

Now Amex is a points ecosystem that I have been earning and using and loving for the last 10 years. Currently, I'm the proud owner of nine Amex cards, not including the eight that I've forced my husband to get, and we have earned and redeemed millions of Amex points for travel. I think there are some really unique aspects of the Amex ecosystem that make this a strong points currency if you know how to navigate it. 

So joining me today to break down everything you need to know about American Express, their credit cards, and their points ecosystem is points award travel expert, Kamree Price. Kamree is the founder of Our Family Passport and is an art history professor. As a mom to a blended family of six, she specializes in finding the best ways to earn and maximize points for families and teaches thousands of other people how to do it as well. 

She's been to over 50 countries on points and miles and most of those with her little ones. Her specialty is finding creative ways to make the most of all of the different bank programs and helping others build a points and miles strategy that works for them. Welcome to the podcast, Kamree. I am so excited to have you here today to dive into the world of American Express credit cards and points.

Kamree: I'm so excited, too. So we've had this on the books for so long. So the fact that we're finally making it happen makes me so excited.

Devon: For months and months and months, we actually attempted to have this conversation, I think almost six months ago. We met up on Zoom where I record my podcast. We ended up just chatting for the entire hour because there were so many interesting things that we wanted to talk about. Didn't end up recording. Met again to record. Had an amazing conversation.

And then I found out after the fact that we had some audio problem, and so we couldn't even use it. And so this is literally six months in the making. I know this is going to be a great conversation because you and I have already had it. And I'm just really excited to try to successfully record this for everybody else to hear.

So let's just start things off. Tell us a little bit more about yourself, Kamree. Where are you from? What do you do? How long have you been in the world of credit card points and award travel?

Kamree: So I honestly, I grew up, my parents had businesses. And so award travel was just something that I honestly, as a kid, I thought everyone did it. I thought everyone used traveled on points. I didn't even realize that it was something that people didn't do until I was a teenager, little bit older. 

So I really, really started my journey in points and miles, though. So I got divorced in my 20s. And I had a young son. And up to that point, we were just kind of paying cash. And we were just kind of figuring life out. For our trips, I'm traveling a lot with my family. And I got divorced. And I was a teacher, I went to school to be a teacher, which I mean, not a big moneymaker, right. And I was working two teaching jobs. 

So I was doing night school as a professor art history and then I was teaching AP art history in high school, so obviously bringing in the big bucks, you know, and I was a single mom and I really valued traveling with my child. I really valued those experiences. That was really important to me and I realized, okay, I actually probably need to dig in and figure this out. 

So that was close to a decade ago, I dug in, I figured out everything that I could. I decided I'm a researcher. I know how academia works. I can research. I mean, it wasn't Monet and Picasso, but I was like, I can figure out the platinum card and the Citi Thank You points and all those things. So that's really where it started. 

The currency that my parents used growing up because they were business owners was actually American Express. So that's where I started. I think most people start in the Chase Ultimate Rewards. I did it backwards. I started with American Express. I really just loved everything about that program, while I think all the programs are really important and I actually think they work really well congruently, I love American Express. 

So that's kind of my background and points and miles. I've obviously gotten remarried. We've been remarried for almost six years now, and we have four children between the two of us. And so that's what we do. And when we first got remarried, I was so not remarried. When I got remarried to my new husband, I had a whole bunch of just kind of trauma and a lot of shame around my first marriage falling apart and feeling like my family fell apart. 

So we started going to see a child psychologist. I was just really nervous, like, okay, I really need this family to work. And we asked him, you know, what are some things that we can do? How can we help solidify this family? And he told me there were three things that in all of his years of work, he was a really celebrated child psychologist. There were three things that his clients, when they came back from college or whatever, he would kind of do like their exit interview, I guess. 

And he would ask them, what do you remember most as a child? What made you the happiest? Like, what do you look back on in your childhood? And he said, there were three things that almost every child says, and it was the meals they ate together as a family, the traditions they had, and the vacations they went on. 

And I thought, okay, I can do that, and I can excel at that. I might not be able to afford crazy vacations, so we're gonna figure out how to do it. So that's my background. Obviously, art history is a big part of my life, so that has nothing to do with this. And so that's my background. That's our family. And that's what we do.

Devon: Yeah. And I think one of the things that I love so much about you, the way that you look at points and miles is one, I love your background as an educator. I think, you know, I don't have a background formally in teaching, but, you know, going through medical education, medical training, there is a lot of teaching involved. 

I've always loved that aspect of points and miles. And so when you say that, you know, you identify as a researcher and you just got into these programs and researched about them. It's something that's so apparent in the way that you talk about points and miles. And so I really value and appreciate that. And I think that's one of the reasons that people listening to this podcast are going to love hearing from you as well.

So let's kick things off. For American Express, when I think about all of the different transferable points currencies, I think that they have personalities. And when I think about the different points currencies, I think of BILT as being really innovative as a points currency but also a little bit demanding in terms of what you have to do in order to earn a lot of their points.

Kamree: Like the Tesla of points?

Devon: Yeah. Exactly. Qualify for the best perks in their program. They can be very rewarding, but they demand that you really invest in them as well, which I don't think is a bad thing. But I do think they have a very distinctive personality and I'm curious how would you describe the personality of American Express overall as a points ecosystem.

Kamree: So I think that, and this is such a fun question, to me, Chase Ultimate Rewards is the girl next door. Approachable, nice to everyone, really easy, like easygoing. To me, American Express membership rewards are actually a little bit uppity, a little bit like, I don't want to say snooty, but just a little bit like, you know, not, I, let me think about this. 

I do think that American Express membership rewards are, I think of like a professional. When I think of them, I think of someone that's kind of no nonsense, that has a high opinion of themselves and also is demanding in their own way a little bit high maintenance, I would say, which is not a bad thing. But just, I mean, and I think American Express knows who they are in the space as well. I want to know what you would think. I think.

Devon: Of two kind of main things. Like I think of them, the word solid just kept coming up to me. I mean, they've been around forever. They don't do a lot of super wacky things impulsively. They're really kind of reliable, dependable, predictable, I think in a good way. But I think the other word that came up to me that I think is touching on kind of what you are also getting at is either like quirky or idiosyncratic. 

Like I think American Express has some quirks to it where they're not, again, as accessible, intuitive a point system as Chase is. I agree. Chase is such a great introductory beginner points currency. I think American Express is incredibly powerful. And if you don't spend a little bit of time kind of understanding its idiosyncrasies, you're not going to be able to get as much out of it. 

I think as you are a points system like Chase, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation with you specifically, because like you've said, you've done the research, you have these cards, you use these cards. I do as well. And I know that we are going to start pulling apart some of these idiosyncrasies so that people have a better idea about how this whole system works and how to get the most out of it. 

But before we get there, I'm curious to hear from you. What do you think are like the three biggest strengths of Amex as a points system? Compared to the other transferable points currencies.

Kamree: So for me, I think one of the major strengths of the American Express Point System, honestly, is just how, like you said, once you know it, it is consistent, it is dependable. I really, really do stand by this. I feel like their customer service is top notch. 

And I know that this is like not a big thing, but the fact that I can apply for a card and I can know right away, am I eligible for this card? Will I get this welcome offer? Am I able to have this card? Am I going to be accepted? Like the fact that it's just so quick, I feel like the application process is way easier than chase. Like to me, I hate the whole, like your application is in review. And I have had times where I've had a card from chase go into review. 

And then the card shows up at my doorstep like 10 days later. And I'm like, I didn't even know that it was accepted. And the fact that I can get my American Express card number after I know they have their Apply with Confidence program, the fact that I can get that number right then and I can use that is really important to me as a business owner now. I don't have to wait. 

So for me, just the overall dependability, the infrastructure of their ecosystem seems a lot, it's just more consistent. I do think while I've said that they're a little bit epity, their customer service is crazy reliable. They have a chat feature, just really dependable. So for me, just their dependability, I love their value. I love their value. 

I think that they offer some really fantastic transfer partners. And now this whole thing with Hawaiian and Alaskan, it's really, really awesome. Their transfer partners, their list is almost double Capital One, and it's at least a third bigger than Chase. And so I do think that that's really fantastic. 

And I think as business owners, and if you have big business spent, the ability to earn a lot of American Express points, these highly valuable points is really fantastic. So that was like four or five. I didn't give you just three. No.

Devon: That's totally fair.

Kamree: I just base it more abundantly on everything that I like in the program.

Devon: No, I agree with you completely. So I don't disagree with anything you said. I have some other strengths that when I think about Amex, especially compared to, again, Chase, Capital One, Citi, Bilt, where I think that they really, really stand out. I think one of those is amazing welcome bonuses. And I don't just mean like one or two. 

When I think of the number of Amex transferable, Amex membership rewards, points earning cards that Amex offers, so the number of cards they offer, and then the bonuses they offer on those cards, I think as an ecosystem is the strongest of all of them. So we'll see with Capital One, the Capital One Business Venture X card had 250,000 point welcome bonus. That's an incredible bonus. But Capital One doesn't have three other business cards that you can also apply for and earn a bonus like that on. 

Capital One doesn't have, you know, a bunch of personal credit cards that can offer really, really high welcome bonuses. I think about Amex compared to Chase in this sense. You know, I think Chase is probably the only other ecosystem that stands up to Amex in terms of the number, the variety, the breadth of transferable points earning cards that are offered. And also, I don't think Chase is competitive with Amex in terms of the welcome bonuses, especially on the personal cards. 

I don't think they are on the business side either, but we do at least see sometimes elevated welcome bonus offers on the Chase business cards. So as much as I do love Chase, I really don't think any of these other ecosystems compares to Amex in terms of the level of the welcome bonuses that we can see on cards and just fact that they have so many great cards to choose from. 

And then I feel like kind of piggybacking on that is that of all of the different points ecosystems, I think the Amex cards are some of the easiest to get approved for. We'll get into kind of eligibility rules and requirements and some of those kind of hoops that you have to know about jumping through. 

But assuming you're eligible for Amex cards, I think they're so much easier to get approved for. I agree. I don't, with you in terms of your experience with Chase. You know, I don't remember very frequently applying for Amex cards, having to wait 10, 14, 30 days to find out if I'm approved for them. Most of the time, if you're eligible, you're going to get approved. 

And I think that this matters a lot more the longer you've been in this game, because we see restrictive rules like Chase 524 rule. We see Capital One limiting, you know, how often you can get approved for cards or how many cards you can hold total. And I just feel like Amex is that points ecosystem that you can get into in the beginning, certainly if you want, but also you're not penalized if you've gone and gotten a built card or some chase cards or, you know, city cards. 

You can still come to chase, or excuse me, come to Amex and have a really high likelihood of getting approved for those cards. And I love that and then I will stick to three things only because I want to make sure we cover all of the other talking points we have [crosstalk].

Anyway, I don't spend 45 minutes just talking about why I think Amex is so great. But I think the third strength when I think of Amex, especially compared to the other points currencies, is I feel like beyond the welcome bonus, beyond their great bonus categories they offer on several of their points earning cards, I feel like Amex makes it easier than other points currencies to earn a lot of points for fairly low effort. 

So I'm thinking about things like Rakuten. I don't think there's another online shopping portal that offers the same ability to earn as many points as easily as Rakuten does. I also love that Amex seems to give out, it feels like candy to me, like little points candy. Things like add an authorized user to your card and when they spend a designated amount, Get an extra 10,000 or an extra 20,000 points, you know, or open up a business checking account. We're going to give you 50,000 points, whatever the case may be. 

You know, one of the questions that a lot of people come to me with once they've gone through that sort of first initial phase of getting their foundational points earning cards is that question of how do I keep earning points? How do I keep earning a lot of points, especially if I don't want to continue only relying on welcome bonuses? 

And I think of all the points currencies, Amex makes that aspect of points earning so much easier than Citi does or so much easier than Bilt does, for example. So there are a lot of strengths to this program. And I think in conjunction with other points currencies, they stand out even more. But one of the things that we've already alluded to is that Amex can be idiosyncratic. And I think one of the places that that is very, very true is when it comes to their eligibility rules for their cards. 

And so what do you think people need to know about American Express card eligibility rules, especially if they're new to this point system, it's one of their first times applying for their cards, and they don't want to accidentally mess up their chances of getting the right Amex cards.

Kamree: So we have a course, we have an entire community. We have almost 2,000 people in there now, and everyone seems so intimidated by American Express. And so my first thought is don't get stuck in analysis paralysis. Don't wait too long to approach American Express. I do think that sometimes what people will do is they'll max out their Chase 524, and then they'll be like, okay, I'll go to Amex. What we've found, and this is anecdotally, this isn't going to be published anywhere, right? That actually can put someone in what is termed the Amex pop-up jail. 

So we've found that it is really great if someone is playing this game, so to speak, right? Their intention is to open up a lot of cards over time. To add American Express in the mix early-ish. It doesn't have to be, in fact, I wouldn't suggest American Express as your first currency because like you've said the idiosyncrasies can be tricky. 

So that would be my first thought though is don't discount American Express, don't be so intimidated by American Express that you max out your 524, you've got all the Capital One cards. American Express really values loyalty and we're gonna talk about that and how to set yourself up for success for targeted offers. That's where American Express really shines and like you said you can earn so many points. Like the category spend on American Express is amazing. 

So that's my first one. Don't get stuck in analysis paralysis. Don't be too intimidated and just start somewhere. So the next thing I would suggest the American Express business, and they're no longer called charge cards. That's not the official card, but it's essentially their old charge card. So this is the business green, the business gold, the business platinum. That is where the targeted offers options really shine. And this is where we're going from like beginner to advanced. 

I'm making a big jump here. But again, anecdotally, but we've had this anecdotally, we've tested this over 2000 students. If you are loyal to American Express, meaning that you have a card or two, you pay your cards off, you participate in adding a few of those offers at a time, you really can be set up for being targeted for different offers. And those targeted offers, I just got a targeted offer earlier this year. 

Now mind you, I've had like four or five different iterations of the business platinum card. The targeted offer was 250,000 membership rewards for I think it was 15,000 spent in three months. And I had already had a platinum card, so it was a targeted offer. So for me, you want to start with American Express, start at the bottom. Don't start with a platinum, start at the bottom. And this is really important for the personal cards because they now have a rule that if you get the American Express personal platinum, you are not eligible to receive the welcome offers on the gold or the green. 

So that can be problematic. I have mixed feelings on the green card. I feel like the green card, eh. For me, if there is a high welcome offer on the personal gold, I think you start there. And then you move up to the platinum when you are ready for that. There has been one elevated offer on the green in the past two years. It was at 60,000. So if that happens again, then I would say get that. And if not, I don't know if those 25,000 points are gonna make or break. I actually think it's 15,000, their public offer, and then you can get a targeted offer. So you wanna start lower tier, just knowing that if you get those personal platinum cards, you're not gonna be eligible. 

I also think that starting business cards is crazy important. I love the American Express Business Gold. For me, it seems to be the key to setting yourself up for targeted offers. So if you have a business, I know that a lot of your community, they have their own medical practices, they have major spend, right? Oh my gosh, put that major spend on that gold card and you're just gonna set yourself up for getting tons of targeted welcome offers through the business line. So my husband and I, in fact, me personally, I regularly earn nearly a million points, American Express membership rewards, in conjunction with the other points that I'm also earning simply by these targeted offers and by using Rakuten, by adding my authorized user for 20,000 points. 

And then I would say retention offers are a really big thing for American Express too, and they almost always give them to you. So those are my first things when you're starting. If you're gonna start the personal route, start at the lower rung on those charge cards, so to speak. If you're gonna start the business route, start in the Amex business gold. Don't start with that platinum card at first. Start a little bit lower, move yourself up. I think it is crazy important to determine what transfer partners or what co-branded cards are for you. 

So like we've had this conversation before, I love Delta. And I'm kind of forced to love Delta actually because I'm in Salt Lake and that is my option where you're like, I never fly Delta. So that's not where it's at for me. So for me, having the Delta co-branded cards and having my American Express membership rewards that I can transfer is huge for me, right? Hilton is such an undervalued program. I think that's really important to know how that works. 

Taking advantage of American Express transfer bonuses are amazing. Like right now they have a 20% transfer bonus to Flying Blue. They always have a transfer bonus. There was a 40% transfer bonus to Hilton earlier this year. Like that's crazy. That's crazy town. And that's so amazing. So it's just really boiling it down to a simple answer for you, Devon. Learn the program a little bit. Don't analyze, don't over, over, overanalyze, but like this podcast would be great. 

Listen to this podcast and then say, okay, I'm gonna start my first card. And if it was me, I would start with a personal gold or I would start with a business gold. And then I would earn those points. I would try to put spend on them. I would see, you know, are there other offers that are available? You can add up to a hundred offers at a time, and sometimes they're bogus and sometimes they're amazing. It's like spend $200 at Hilton and get $50 back. 

A few years ago, there was an Amazon bonus that it was five times the points from Black Friday to Christmas on anything that you spent on Amazon, like that's so good. So just be in their program, be in your system. Look at that. Like you said, oh my gosh, you can open a business checking and you, I think there was an offer. I got one, I think it was 80,000 points. 

So it is just a little different. Idiosyncrasies you cannot transfer between spouses. So my American Express points are my American Express points. Jason's American Express points are his American Express points. That's hard unless you're an authorized user between the two of you. And spend. Spend is kind of an important part. 

And it is just like, to me, that's a word that needs to come with American Express. The annual fees are more. You need to be prepared for that. Spending on it is great. And then something good and bad with American Express is they do have these like benefits that come with these cards, but know what those benefits are and use them if they're applicable to you.

Devon: I think all of that is so helpful to know about. Now you've touched on a couple, like we said, some of the quirky things about applying for Amex, kind of the rules that they have. You mentioned the family rule and this is the one that states that on the personal side. So this so far does not apply to the business credit cards. I'm actually curious if it's going to extend to the business cards at some point. I hope not. 

But right now that family rule really applies. the personal membership rewards points earning cards. So that's really important to know about the other idiosyncrasy that I think people can get really tripped up with both understanding and then figuring out how to navigate that I was hoping that you could speak a little bit more about is the once per lifetime rule. Can you talk about what this is, how it really impacts people? And then again, what are some of the quirky workarounds in dealing with the once per lifetime rule.

Kamree: Okay. Lifetime rule states that you technically can only get a welcome offer welcome bonus one time and that is for all American Express cards regardless if it is a co-branded card regardless if it's a cash-back card that's the rule. Now in practice that actually is a little bit different so there are data points going back to like researching right there are data points that suggest well, seven years actually seems to kind of be the mark that you can start getting, you know, let's say I got a business, let's say I got a personal platinum eight years ago. 

Data points suggest that it would be possible for me post seven years to potentially get that welcome offer again. So that is their in-text published rule. It is once per lifetime. Now most targeted offers, whether these are the targeted offers that come to you in the mail or targeted offers that are in your account or e-mail, they come three different ways and sometimes they're different. So you want to keep an eye out for those targeted offers. 

Most of the time the targeted offers, when you go and you hit the little offers term, so now this is where we're getting like real researchy and really nitty gritty. If you hit the offers terms and you go down, it's going to pop you down and the first thing it's gonna say on a public offer is it's gonna say you are not eligible for this welcome offer if you've ever had this card before or iterations of this card. Targeted offers nine times out of ten do not have that once-in-a-lifetime language. 

So what happens is if you can take advantage of a targeted offer and these are really personal most of the time they're personal to you they are sent to you or your business, most of the time they don't have that language. And we've learned through practice, through research, that once you can get into a card without that once in a lifetime language, that can keep repeating. Usually I see that on business cards, and I usually see it when you start at the lower tier. So I did an experiment, I'm still waiting to see what happens. 

I started with the business gold years ago. I have got upgraded, I've done all these things. I've gotten welcome offers on probably 10 different versions of the business gold and the business platinum card. And I keep getting, I keep them, I have them right here, I'm going to try to hide my address. I get them all the time, literally all the time. But I thought I'm going to try the business green and I'm going to see what happens. 

So I'm in that research experiment phase. So once in a lifetime is tricky, and you do wanna be aware of it. And that's why with American Express, you really do want, if you're gonna do a public offer, which you have to start at a public offer at some point. You're not gonna just get a targeted offer if you've never had an American Express card. Like that would be really rare. Start at the lower. That's just, just start at the lower. Even if you're gonna do Delta or Hilton, start at the lower and just test. Spend and test. Okay, Devon, is that what you were looking for?

Devon: Yes, absolutely. Thank you for clarifying that because again, this is a very unique rule to American Express. You know, the other credit card transfer, excuse me, the other transferable points companies, you know, they all have their own eligibility rules. 

Certainly, it's very common to see something like from Chase where it says, you know, for the Sapphire cards, you're eligible to earn this welcome bonus once every 48 months. So, you know, people who've been in at least one transferable points currency, they're probably not shocked to find that there are eligibility rules in general, but I can't think of another kind of synonymous rule to the ones per lifetime language or the ones per lifetime rule that American Express has. 

And so I think it is really important that people understand it exists and also understand what does this actually mean and how can we navigate around this? Because as you've mentioned, you know, this is not a hard and fast rule when you understand kind of how Amex actually uses it in practice. Now, you have also touched a little bit on how incredible American Express is when it actually comes time to use those valuable points. Most of us are not in this game just for the thrill and the dopamine hit of earning points, although that certainly can be great. We want to do something with all of those points. I don't.

Kamree: Do drugs. I earned points. Like it was Salvador Dali. I don't have to do drugs. I'm an artist, but like, I don't have to do drugs. I can earn my points for my dopamine hits, right?

Devon: Exactly. And I think, I think other than the dopamine hit of getting a really great welcome bonus, using that point for points for, you know, a redemption that really matters to you, that really matters to your family is one of the most fun and impactful things about being in this hobby. 

And you already mentioned that American Express really, really shines when it comes to their transfer partners. You know, they have over 20 airline and hotel transfer partners. Which ones do you think are most valuable or useful, especially when it comes to things like Sweet Spots or where American Express, again, stands out as unique compared to other points currencies.

Kamree: So I love, I love Chris Flyer. I think that that, I mean, getting those business class Sabre awards to Asia is fantastic. I love, I think this new Hawaiian Alaskan thing is monumental. I am holding my breath. I don't know what's going to happen here or how long this is going to play out, but I know Alaskan Airlines is a huge sweet spot in the points and miles world, especially for some business class flights, flights to Iceland and flights to Asia. 

They have that really great award chart still. And the fact now that there's this kind of workaround that you can transfer from American to Hawaiian, then to Hawaiian to Alaskan is huge. Again, I'm kind of holding my breath on that one. I don't know what's going to happen, but I think use it while you can. That's amazing. Delta, for me, is a big one because SkyMiles have just been so crazy over the last little while. But again, that's not for everyone. I know that you have loved, what's your favorite transfer partner? You had told me this on our last meeting that you loved for your family. Yeah.

Devon: So it's actually kind of changed over time. So I agree with you. One of the things that you had said the last time that we chatted that I really wanted to make sure that we touched on this time is that Amex plays so well with other points currencies. And I think that's one of the areas that we've really benefited from that. 

And what I mean is that Amex has so many transfer partners that are also transfer partners of Chase or of Capital One. And so you can effectively combine points between points currencies in this way. And so when I think about kind of shared transfer partners of Amex, things you already mentioned Singapore, Chris Flyer, Air Canada Aeroplane is a program I have gotten so much value out of personally. Air France Flying Blue, Virgin, British Airways, I think that these are just really, really accessible points transfer partners, especially when we bring into account transfer bonuses like American Express is really great about transfer bonuses. 

When I think about Amex or any of the points currencies, one of the things I look at with transfer partner charts is that question of what are the shared transfer partners with other points currencies that I have? And also, what are the unique transfer partners? You know, what does this points currency give me access to or allow me to do that no other points currency does, or at least maybe the other points currencies I have don't give me access to? And when it comes to American Express, you've already mentioned Delta, which I think is a great point. I also think about ANA. 

You know, ANA is not what I would consider to be a beginner kind of award hooking program. But when you do get comfortable with it, I think ANA offers so much incredible value. I had Devin Sullivan from the Point Sisters on the podcast. She talked about the ANA around the world ticket, which I think is probably hands down the single best, especially business class deal that you can find in award travel. 

And then you mentioned this as well. What is new from the last time we attempted to record this podcast episode is the fact that at least now, and we don't know how long this will be true, but right now for those of you who have Amex points, and again, some people have millions and millions of these points, is that for the first time ever, we can effectively access the Alaska Airlines program with Amex points through this little funnel where first you have to transfer your Amex points to a Hawaiian Airlines account, and then you can shift them over from a Hawaiian Airlines account to Alaska. 

And I think this opportunity, again, I really don't think that it's going to be permanent, But I think while it is available, I think this is so incredible. I've actually already taken advantage of this. The minute it became live, I already had awards that I wanted to book that were with a partner airline that you literally cannot access through any other award program. So it doesn't matter that I also do have Citi and Capital One and Chase Miles. I have Turkish Airlines Miles. 

I've looked tons of miles and more miles. I've got a lot of different things. And still, there are some transfer partners that you are not going to have access to, despite all of that. And so I think the whole accessing Alaska Airlines from Amex is one of the best things to happen to points and miles this year.

 So that's something I've already gotten value out of and I love very, very much. But one area that I personally don't access Amex points that I know you do, and so I was hoping you could give us some examples or tips around this, is that AmeriExpress, beyond their airline transfer partners, of course, also has hotel transfer partners. 

I happen to be in a season of my life where our hotel of choice is Hyatt, so that's why I rely so much on my Chase points, but I know that you've had great experiences specifically with Hilton, so can you talk a little bit about the value of Amex points and or Hilton credit cards.

Kamree: Yes, so and I'm going to plug in Marriott too because I love, speaking of how American Express plays well, you can earn merit points through Chase and through American Express. So that's a really good spot. But let's focus on Hilton. 

So Hilton, knowing how Hilton and American Express work, you can get unbelievable stays in places like Bora Bora or there's, you know, there's these beautiful Waldorf Astoria hotels, things like that. And actually it really is. I feel like everyone knows Hyatt. 

Well, Hyatt is a sweet spot. be honest, Hyatt really is a sweet spot. Hilton is so undervalued especially when you can combine your Hilton credit card points and I only have one Hilton credit card right now all it is is just to get me my status that's it for me but anytime you transfer points from American Express to Hilton it is a one to two transfer so for every one American Express point you get two Hilton points and then if you take advantage of transfer bonuses you can get some really, really exceptional stays. For me, Hilton shines and Amex shines on the higher level of stays. 

So we're talking Conrad, Waldorf Astoria, things like that. The lower end Hampton Inn, you're just not gonna find the sweet spots that you find in Hyatt. But there are some great things. One, availability is just much better. Two, Hilton has now taken on those small luxury hotel properties that Hyatt used to have, and actually they're pretty great. 

Like there is like the hotel that we booked for Bali next year, it is a lovely, lovely boutique hotel in Ubud. Like it is beautiful and it is so expensive. And we got it for 55,000 Hilton points a night, which seems like kind of a lot. But when you consider, oh, okay, I actually got those Hilton points. Half of those were just because I transferred and then I took advantage of a transfer bonus. I'm really only paying about 20,000 points a night. So that is comparable to Hyatt, right? 

And in some ways it's better than that. So I really, really enjoy that. Again though, I don't think Amex is a program you want just on your own. Like kind of what you've said, we use Chase and we use Chase for Hyatt and that's amazing. And I think some people really can be just happy in the Chase Ultimate Rewards program. American Express for me is for people who value some luxurious things, business class, really beautiful resorts and hotels, high levels of customer service. 

American Express has their fine hotels and resorts program, which is basically globalist anywhere that you book through them. It is just a little bit more luxe, but if you know how to use it and you have some of these hotels that you're like, gosh, I really, really want to go to Bora Bora. Well, there's not a Hyatt on Bora Bora. You can't do that. want to go to Egypt. Well, guess what? You've got the Hyatt in Cairo and that's about it. American Express really opens up the door to a much larger global footprint that you don't have with Chase and especially you don't have with Capital One.

Devon: Yeah, and those are such important points to take into consideration again, especially as you are in this game or this hobby longer and longer. You know, if you want to explore more places, there is no such thing as certainly the one perfect or best points earning card. There's no one such thing as one perfect or best points currency either. So really learning where these different currencies shine, especially compared to one another, I think is so helpful. 

Now before we wrap up today, I feel like there's just one more thing we need to talk about. And no conversation about American Express would be complete without talking about the dreaded pop-up jail. So can you take a minute or a few minutes and tell everybody, what is Amex pop-up gel? How do you land yourself there? And is there anything that you can do to get out of it once you find out that that's where you are.

Kamree: Yes. So the pop-up gel is so annoying. And going back to research, American Express has nothing published about this pop-up gel. What will happen is if you go to apply, you go through the Apply with Confidence program, a little pop-up is going to pop up and it's going to say, you can still apply for this card but you are not, you can't get the welcome bonus. So no one wants to do that right no one wants to take up a 524 spot no one wants to pay a $695 annual fee for zero, zero welcome like no one wants to do that that's not smart especially in American Express because what I can't figure out is okay let's say that you did apply and you got the platinum card with no bonus because you're in puppet pop-up gel, does that limit your ability because you've already had that card? 

So the pop-up gel is highly annoying. There's almost nothing officially published about it on American Express. So this is all anecdotal data. This is, you know, Reddit threads and all of the things. Here is what's worked for our students and for other people. I personally have never landed in pop-up gel, praise the heavens. My business partner had. Interestingly enough, the people that we see consistently landing in American Express pop-up gel are those who may have like maxed out their 524 with chase cards and they've done capital one and then they come to American Express. 

Like there's some sort of idiosyncrasy there where American Express is like, what? You didn't want to play with me. I'm plan C, so I'm not going to play with you anymore if we're talking like playground politics and it's not hard and fast. That's not the hard and fast rule. Another thing that we see happening was maybe like someone applied for a really, really high offer. They met that minimum spend, and then they stopped spending on that American Express card for a really long time. 

That kind of, again, tells American Express, like, okay, you didn't want to play with me, so now I'm not going to play with you. If you're late on your payments, things like that. So obviously, if you're late on your payments, then that's something that you can fix, right? We don't need to dive into that. If you find yourself in pop-up gel and you have no idea why you were there, with American Express Apply With Confidence program, you kind of can play around and see, like, oh, Am I in pop-up gel for just business charge cards? Am I in pop-up gel for personal charge cards? Could I get a Hilton card? Could I get a Delta card or any of those different cards? 

So the first thing that I would suggest is try a different card family. So if it's like, okay, I got this for the personal gold, try the business gold and see what happens. And that's what happened to Annie, to my business partner. She was like, I'm gonna try the business gold. She got it, she got the welcome offer. and it just kind of opened the door for her. 

So, you know, try a Hilton, try a Delta, see what you can get. And it may be that it is like across the board. If you have an American Express card, it doesn't matter if it's some cash-back card that's 10 years old, it doesn't matter if it's a Hilton card or a Delta card or whatever it may be, start putting spend on that card and like be really, really serious about it. And not only put spend, get in your account and add an authorized user, like use that program. Basically, just play with that card. 

So if we're talking about playground politics, play with that card. Those have been things that really seem to help. Another thing that you can do is you can check tools like Card Match or something like that, and it may be that the public offer doesn't seem to be clicking for you for some reason, but you can maybe get a targeted offer or something that looks different. 

And then lastly, if somebody has a referral, so like let's say that I had a personal referral for American Express Platinum, you can also try that as well. There's just some different avenues. So if you have an Amex card, put all the spend that you can and make sure you pay it off. If you don't, test different families, look and see if there's someone that has a referral. And then if you still find yourself stuck, just give yourself some time. And I know this is painful for us in the points and miles world, but this actually means time not applying for a Chase card or a Capital One card. It just is kind of like, just give it some time and then try again in about three to six months.

Devon: Kamree, thank you so much for those tips, for that advice. I think it's gonna be so helpful for so many people. Thank you for joining me today, sharing your wealth of knowledge about the American Express points ecosystem. I appreciate you and your time so much. For people who are interested in learning more about you and what you do, where can they find you?

Kamree: So I'm at @rfamilypassport on Instagram. We have a website and then we also have an entire set of courses. These are geared more towards beginners. So if you're like listening to this and you're like, this is so over my head, it's called Travel Reward University and you can find us there. And we would love just any questions if you have questions about American Express, come and ask me. I love American Express and I'd be so happy to help you.

Devon: Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today and have a great week, everybody. 

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Point Me to First Class. If you want more tips on turning your expenses into travel, visit pointmetofirstclass.com to learn more. See you next week.