77. Capital One: The Points Sleeper Agent That's Coming to Life with the Points and Miles Doc

Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel the world. I'm your host, Devon Gimbel, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest untapped asset if you know how to leverage them. Ready to dive into the world of credit card points and miles so you can travel more, travel better, and travel often? Let's get started.

Devon: Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. If you have been in the points and miles world for more than a minute, you probably know that this is a game that is constantly changing. New rewards cards get introduced, airline and hotel loyalty programs change, sometimes for the worse, and points-earning and redeeming opportunities come and go.

But one thing that hasn't changed in all of my years of using points for travel is the importance of having transferable points. In fact, I think that anyone who's moderately serious about this hobby should have access to at least one of the five major transferable points currencies because of the value and the flexibility these points offer. 

But sometimes it can be hard to know which of the five main transferable points currencies, that is Amex Membership Rewards Points, Chase Ultimate Rewards Points, Citi Thank You Points, Capital One Miles, or Bilt Points will be most useful for you or what the differences are between these points ecosystems, their points-earning cards, and their unique points-redemption opportunities.

That is why today we are going to be doing a deep dive into one specific points currency, the world of Capital One, including an overview of the rewards cards they offer, who this points system can benefit, as well as some of its shortcomings or limitations compared to other points currencies, and how to put Capital One credit cards and points to great use. 

Now, this episode is the third one focused on one of the transferable points currencies. If you want to learn more about the Chase points ecosystem, you can check out podcast episode number 57 with Dr. Sujatha Murali. If you want to hear about what makes the Bilt card and its points ecosystem unique, you'll want to listen to podcast episode number 61 with Dr. Suzanne Manzi. In upcoming episodes, you can also look forward to a deep dive into the American Express points ecosystem and the Citi ecosystem. But today is all about Capital One.

This is the points currency that I have most recently added to my credit card portfolio after having spent the majority of the last 10 years earning and using Chase and Amex points.  I think it offers some really interesting advantages. But joining me today to break down everything that you need to know about Capital One credit cards and points is points and miles enthusiast Kelly.

Fans of the podcast will recognize Kelly from guesting on several prior episodes, including episodes number 45 and number 46, our 2023 year in review series that were some of the most popular episodes on the podcast so far. Kelly, thank you so much, as always, for joining me on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today and to dive into the Capital One points ecosystem with you.

Kelly: Devon, I'm so excited to be here and see you again. It's always so much fun to talk to you. I can't wait to see you next month in person at your conference and meet so many of your wonderful listeners who I imagine is just going to be such a wonderful, fun time for us to hang out together. 

Devon: I am so looking forward to it. I'm excited for everybody to meet you because you are such a wealth of points knowledge, which is why I asked you to come back again for probably the 72nd time on this podcast to share what you know about the Capital One points ecosystem. Because it's a point system that I know you and I both like, but I think you've been in this ecosystem much longer than I have. So I thought that you would be a fantastic person to introduce all the podcast listeners to what Capital One has to offer, what they're great at, maybe what they're not so great at.

So I wanted to start off with just talking about your relationship with Capital One. How long have you been in this points currency? What Capital One cards do you currently have and use? 

Kelly: Yeah, I feel like Capital One has been a little bit of a sleeper agent in the points and miles world. It wasn't that long ago, only a few years back, where they actually added the ability to turn their points into transferable points. They've had this long historical use of their points as being able to wipe out, in quotes, or redeem points for travel, kind of like cash-back. They call it like a points eraser where you could use points at one cent per point to wipe out essentially travel costs that you had put on your Capital One cards. It was just a couple years ago, before the Venture X came out, that they decided to add a cohort of transferable partners and loyalty programs.

They started off with a bang. I mean, they really started off with a huge amount of transfer partners, which we're seeing a little bit less of Bilt. They started small and then expanded in the new Wells Fargo card. They have started very small, haven't expanded yet, though people anticipate it. But they really just started off with a huge ecosystem of transferable loyalty programs. 

So I actually started with the Venture card, which we'll talk about a little later. I had to apply multiple times and got denied multiple times and then learned a little bit more about how they actually allow you into their system, which is even harder than Chase. Some people will probably be surprised to learn. The Venture X came out shortly after I had obtained the Venture card. So I think after a year, I canceled that card and then opened the Venture X. 

Then the Venture X business came out a little bit later and had an incredible welcome offer that was reduced for a short amount of time. So I picked up that card. Then I also picked up one of my favorite cards, which is their no annual fee Saver One card, which I think a lot of people will be excited to learn about, especially in light of the changes with the Amex Gold. It can serve as a really nice replacement for that. 

Devon: Yeah, absolutely. We are for sure going to get into that. I like that you brought up sort of the trend or the advancement of Capital One and sort of the way that it has now integrated itself into some of these more traditional transferable points earning currencies. I love that you call them sort of the sleeper agent. 

I was going to ask you kind of how would you describe the personality of Capital One? Because I think each of the major transferable points currencies or ecosystems kind of have their own personalities. I love that you call it a sleeper agent. I would call it the most improved player. 

Because I think 10 years ago when, even when Chase and American Express were already very, very strong in terms of the number of credit cards they offered. They already had some great transfer partners, great uses of their points. Capital One was around, but it just, in my opinion, didn't really provide any sort of competition to Amex or Chase for people who specifically wanted to earn points and miles that you could transfer.

So they, I think more than any other banking system in the points and miles space, has really started to come into its own over the last couple of years in a really great way in terms of expanding offerings to consumers, having more options and ways of earning points and using those points. So I'm really excited by Capital One because I think it's really nice to see a program that's overall growing and expanding in a way that offers more options to points and miles enthusiasts. So I'm excited to see what Capital One continues to do. 

But before we get to some maybe potential predictions about what we can see out of Capital One in the future, let's talk about Capital One and what they offer us right now. What do you think are some of the biggest strengths of Capital One as a points ecosystem compared to the other transferable points currencies for folks who maybe aren't really aware of them or are starting to do that analysis of how would they know if getting into a Capital One points system is actually going to be beneficial for them? 

Kelly: Yeah, yeah. I like your comment most improved sleeper agent. I also made a note in my notes like fills the gaps. I feel like they were a program that filled a space that wasn't being occupied yet, despite having all those amazing components of Amex and Chase. One of the biggest strengths to this day is like the Venture, the Venture X, the Venture X Business two times points on everything across the board. 

On a personal card, that really didn't exist except for the Citi Double Cash, which is a cash-back card by itself. Whereas these were points earning cards at two times points, the Amex Blue Business Plus wasn't around at the time. Again, that's a business card. 

So for somebody who wanted a personal card, two times points, everything, no foreign transaction fees no international fees, and all the benefits that came with that. So I think it was just a really easy system to use at first, how they designed it, just two times points back on everything, and you could use it without fear that you wouldn't get your bonus. That's probably one of the biggest strengths that I still see to this day.

On their premium card, the Venture X, Venture X Business, they've made it a really appealing premium card. The annual fee is still $395. It's not up in the $600s. It's close to $700 these days. It's where our old premium card annual fees used to live around. They have a $300 travel credit, which is quite easy to use. You get a 10,000 point bonus every year. So it makes the annual fee really justifiable to me. 

Also the access to their lounges and the fact that they are starting and expanding a lounge network. Again, as far as being a most improved program, they never had lounges before. Now they're opening lounges. They opened a lounge in DFW, which is a place I transit through frequently being an AA loyalist. So that's an easy perk for me. So I believe I just get so much value. 

It's easy to see that annual fee come back, despite the fact that on their premium cards, they don't really have big bonus categories. They do still have some bonus categories you can get through the portal. I know people don't always love booking through the portal, but I found it really useful for kind of low risk, short haul flights where you get five times points on the flight, and you still get your status, your loyalty points and everything, even by booking through the portal. So yeah, for me, the value, the wiping out the annual fee, and just the ease of use. I would say if somebody only wanted one card, the Capital One Venture X is probably going to be it for what I would recommend. 

Devon: Yeah, I love those points. I agree with you that I think one of Capital One's strengths is its simplicity. You don't need to have this really extensive compiled jigsaw puzzle together credit card portfolio. You can have like one or two just really, really solid cards. I think that this is great for people who are just beginning in the points hobby or people who recognize and acknowledge they really don't have an aspiration to someday hold 10, 15, 20 different credit cards.

The other thing that I think is a really great strength of Capital One, not necessarily in exclusion to the other transferable points currencies, but when I look at Capital One, I think is a strength of them is that I really like that they do have both on the personal and the business side. These cards that on their own are technically cash-back cards, but similar to what we see with the Chase cash-back cards, that if you hold one single transferable points earning card in the Capital One ecosystem, you can turn the personal and the business cash-back cards into points earning cards. I really like the flexibility that offers.

So someone who maybe has held a cash-back card for a long time doesn't necessarily want to completely get rid of it. They can get one other points earning card from Capital One and transform their personal cash-back Capital One card, depending on which one it is, into potentially a points earning card. 

I think that that is really nice because we don't really see that extensively with especially American Express. We have a little bit of that option in the Citi ecosystem, but Citi's overall card menu is really, really limited compared to a lot of these other transferable points currencies. 

So I think that's something that people who are just learning about Capital One, you don't want to neglect the fact that you can have this combination of technically cash-back cards and points earning cards, but all of them can be earning transferable points together. 

Then the last thing about Capital One that I really do think is a huge strength compared to the other transferable points currencies is that of all of the credit card issuers, Capital One by far has the most generous and the most flexible kind of points combining policies of all of the banks.

Kelly: Yes, that.

Devon: I think that this is so important and so helpful, right, if you are not just a solo points earner. I think if you're someone who is only ever going to earn and use points yourself, this maybe won't feel so relevant. But if you do have Capital One points or miles, or you know somebody else who does, Capital One makes it so easy for you to share or transfer miles in between card members. 

There's no limit on the number of miles that you can share with other card members. There's no requirement that you be related to or share an address with the person that you want to transfer miles to, like we do see with some other credit card issuers. There's no expiration policies that you have to be really careful of if you do want to transfer or combine points between card members. Again, like we see, especially with Citi. 

So Capital One really makes it easy for you to be able to pool miles or points with other people. I think that's something that especially when someone is first evaluating credit cards, that's probably not one of the features that comes to the top of their mind. I think it's really common for us to look at things like which cards are offering really strong welcome bonuses or which credit cards are going to allow us to earn a lot of points in the categories that we tend to spend a lot of money on, which, of course, are important.

But when you get to the stage of then having accrued a lot of points, and you're trying to plan travel, especially among more than one person, that's when you really become aware of how much these points combining policies of individual banks can really impact and sometimes restrict you. I think it's great that Capital One has such a generous and flexible points combining policy.

Kelly: Yeah, I totally agree. They're the most flexible by far. I think that goes along also with their like flexibility, with their authorized user cards too. They're the for a premium card is the only one that offers authorized users for free that actually still get the same like full lounge benefits of the primary card holder. So the primary card holder, for example, on the Venture X gets priority pass membership and every authorized user also gets their own full priority pass membership.

So if you have a big family and you need to bring in five, six kids, every person can have their own priority pass membership and then bring in two guests. So then you've got everybody covered. Whereas it can be a little bit more difficult and particularly difficult with Amex and their Centurion lounges, which has not been very family friendly as far as getting in other people with just your one card and not paying extra.

Devon: Yes, I completely agree. So Capital One really gets some extra bonus points for its flexibility and generosity overall. But as with all points ecosystems, it's not always just all good news. The next thing I want to get sort of your input about, your opinion about is what do you think are some of the weaknesses of Capital One compared to the other points currencies, just in terms of rewards cards that are offered, options for using their points, or just other aspects of the ecosystem that people should be aware of? 

Kelly: Yeah, I'd like to classify the systems or cards into different categories. Like this is an open and a keeper, and this is a churn and burn. This is a cancel every year once the annual fee hits. Capital One is not a churn and burn system. It is an open and keep. They have limited card offerings, and they don't let you hold very many of their cards at once. One per category, and you're limited on the categories that you can open. 

So, again, with the annual fee being lower and the value that you get from most of these cards, I think these are worthwhile to open and keep, but you're not going to be able to find multiple welcome offers and build up a huge balance of Capital One points that way. You're going to have to use it strategically for your everyday spend and build your points up slowly over time, which is why I tend to hoard the Capital One points a little bit more because I know I can't easily replace a couple hundred thousand points with just a welcome offer. But that's something really to take into account in the points hobby that they're not churn and burn. That's probably their biggest downside for us.

Devon: Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. This is where I feel like, again, the personalities of a point system can really start to show themselves is that Capital One, to me, is almost like this beautiful, fragile Fabergé egg, right? Like you have to be very careful with it. It's something that like requires a lot of care, a lot of intention. It's not something you sort of like pick up and throw around and think you're going to get a great result. Right.

That's not to say it's not a really great points ecosystem. It's just that it does operate pretty differently from some of the other transferable points currencies in these regards. Some of the things that stand out to me about Capital One as well is that, and you've kind of touched on this, is that when we compare the cards that are available from Capital One to cards that are available from the other transferable points currencies, the thing that is Capital One's strength, which is its simplicity, it's very straightforward.

They have a lot of cards that are just going to offer you a great high two times points return on all your spend. So it's not complicated. I also find that to be its weakness in the sense that Capital One doesn't tend to offer the diversity of cards that have really, really high category bonus spend. 

So on the one hand, they've got cards that offer arguably some of the best non-category spend at two times points, again, on everything with no limit. The flip side is we don't really have a lot of options in Capital One to be earning three, four, five times points on a really broad range of spend. We see that on both the personal cards as well as on the business cards.

Although we will get to, you mentioned previously one of the personal cards that actually is very strong for a lot of categories in earning. But again, compared to some of the other points ecosystems, we don't have a lot of options of Capital One credit cards that have multiple really high category bonuses. 

Likewise, I think one of the things that I see as a Capital One weakness as someone who is a business owner, and I have business expenses that I'm always looking to maximize and optimize with my credit card spend is that I don't find their business credit card options quite as diverse, again, as we see in some of the other credit card issuers.

So, when I'm looking to have business credit cards that I'm using solely for business spend and I'm wanting to be able to build out kind of that side of my portfolio, I would love to see a Capital One business credit card that offers me more than two times points on just some type of spend. We don't really have that option right now. I hope that it might come in the future. 

Then sort of a minor point, which honestly, this would not dissuade me from getting into Capital One, but if we are comparing the different points currencies and what do some do really well versus what do some not do so well is that I think, again, this may be all in line with Capital One's just approach to keep things very streamlined and simple, is that it doesn't, to me, feel like there are a lot of additional opportunities to earn nice chunks of Capital One points beyond just putting spend on the cards the same way that we do see in other points currencies. 

I've had a podcast episode before about my deep and enduring love for Rakuten because it allows me to earn so many American Express points for online shopping. I've done an episode about Chase's quarterly bonuses or promotions that they offer on some of their credit cards, which are just really nice ways to be able to have kind of a limited time, little mini welcome bonus on a card where for three months you can earn five times United miles on certain categories of spend or what have you.

I don't really see that from Capital One. You know, they have a shopping portal, but it's strictly cash-back. And so for people who do want to concentrate on points earning, we don't really have an opportunity to leverage online shopping to earn Capital One points.

Don't really hear about retention offers or retention bonuses being offered on Capital One cards. Even though, as you mentioned, this is not a churn and burn system. If you did have a card that you were considering closing, this is not one of the ecosystems where I would really anticipate getting any sort of generous retention offer to keep a card open. They just don't seem to make it as easy as some of the other credit card issuers to pick up points through a lot of different earning methods. 

But you let me know. You've been in the system longer than I have. Are there some secret Capital One points earning opportunities that I just don't know about yet because I haven't been in this ecosystem long enough, and I haven't uncovered them? 

Kelly: I wish I could say so. Somehow I've been able to amass quite a bit of points, but I think that's because of its simplicity and two times earning. I just put all of our non-bonus spend on it, including recurring expenses like utilities and donations and all these. It's the thing that I actually carry in my wallet that I'm using for those non-bonus retail spend categories. 

I do think the Venture X business card is, it's a charge card, which means you can spend essentially whatever you want on it, but you have to pay it off. For business owners who are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a card every year, I do think that's a really nice value proposition because you're going to get two times points on that. 

Whereas if you compare it to other charge cards we know about, like the Amex Business Platinum, the max you're going to get is 1.5 points per dollar only on single charges over $5,000. So I do think for really big spenders, they're going to easily max out all the welcome offers they can get. They're not going to be able to optimize those bonus categories because they're spending in non-bonus areas. It's definitely the best card to use.

That's, I think, where people can rack up tons and tons of points is big spenders, people who own businesses, who are needing a simple card that they can charge endlessly on. Unfortunately, in the Chase ecosystem, there's no charge card. So it just doesn't exist yet. Yeah, we've talked about that before and how we hope that comes out someday. So, I do think it's one of the best options for really big spenders at this time. 

Devon: I want to throw this in. I know this is not going to apply to everybody who listens to this podcast, but this is something I've been thinking about more and more because I get a lot of questions from people in different backgrounds, different types of spend. 

Specifically, I get asked a lot on the business side for people who are business owners but they are one of maybe three or four equal business owners in their business. This is very common in medical practices where there may be three or four partner owners of a medical practice or a law practice or just any other type of business.

I think one of the things that is really important to consider is, again, Capital One, because of their flexibility around how you can combine or shift points for people who are business owners and have more than one partner, Capital One and specifically that Capital One Business Venture X card is such a valuable, useful card to have because there is no other system that really makes it easy for people who earn points together as part of a business but don't want to share their points with one another in terms of they're not booking family trips together where equally and for the same things as people. 

They really do want to say okay, well, 25% of these points earned are mine. How can I transfer these to my own personal Capital One account or my own personal credit card account so I can use them however I want? Because some people just want to use them strictly as cash-back. Other people want to maximize the value and use them as transferable points. 

The more kind of consulting that I've done, I've just seen, especially for this scenario where there's more than one partner/owner in a business and you want to leverage points earning cards on your business expenses, it is much, much more difficult logistically to come up with a fair and equitable and usable kind of credit card portfolio when you're focused on Chase credit cards or American Express credit cards. 

So for people who need, again, a streamlined, simple way to really leverage those what can be very high business expenses when you do have multiple business partners, the Capital One system, it is so easy, so streamlined. I have just seen so many people kind of throw their hands up in the air in frustration trying to make a system work with Capital One, or excuse me, with Chase or American Express. Capital One is just so easy for those folks. 

So for the people who are listening to that applies to Capital One is where I would kind of almost start, not start and end, but definitely start in terms of coming up with a robust kind of business credit card points earning strategy in that scenario.

Kelly: Yeah, great point. 

Devon: Again, it's not always going to apply to everyone, but this is why I think it's helpful to kind of understand what are some of these major differences between the points currencies so that you can start making some decisions ahead of time, understanding which ones might actually be the best fit for you. 

But one of the things that we always have to take into consideration, whether you're a solo points earner, you're a business owner, Capital One is your first points ecosystem that you want to put your foot into or your fourth one, like it was for me, is that all of the major points currencies have their own idiosyncrasies in terms of eligibility rules for their cards. 

Things like how many cards can you hold within that points ecosystem? Is there a specific order that you need to apply for those cards in, or are there things that you can do that are going to improve or going to hurt your chances of getting approved for credit cards from this bank itself? 

So what do you think that people need to know about Capital One credit card eligibility rules if they want to get into this points ecosystem, and they don't want to accidentally mess up their chances of getting approved for Capital One cards? 

Kelly: Yeah, we talk about 5/24 for Chase like all day and all night. 5/24, 5/24, Chase, Chase, Chase. Capital One is harder. It's much harder. Though they have never explicitly said, they do seem to hold to the 5/24 rules as well. They also for personal cards seem to hold to a one card every six months rule, which is also much more strict than Chase.

So when I'm recommending people open up cards, I actually will look at Capital One before looking at Chase because they're much more strict. You can open your Capital One card first and then get into the Chase ecosystem.

Another weird idiosyncrasy is that their Venture X business cards will not count on your personal credit report. So it's not counting against 5/24, but their Spark business cards do, which is very interesting. So don't be like oh, I'm opening this business card and it's not going to count towards 5/24, but it does. 

The other thing is, as we've mentioned, they have limited card categories, and you're only eligible for one card in each category. So you're only eligible for one type of Venture card. You're only eligible for the one Venture X business and then one of the Spark business cards. You can't open multiple cards in that system. Then I believe the same is for the Quicksilver system. 

The Saver one, which we'll talk about, is a little bit different and you are able to apply for that even with a personal Venture card. But, again, it's not a turn and burn system. So don't expect to be moving through cards quickly. These are open and keep cards. 

Devon: Yeah, I completely agree with you. I'm sorry if you mentioned this. I can't remember if you did, but it's also a rule that you can only hold two personal Capital One credit cards at an individual time. 

Kelly: Yeah, that’s right.

Devon: So, again, it's not that they have 27 different personal cards that you necessarily want to be able to go after. But to be limited to only two of their personal cards at one time really demands that you are intentional about what are the cards that are going to be the most useful for you, as you've said multiple times, which is a fantastic point, this is not a turn and burn system. This is not where you're going to have really high turnover of a lot of different Capital One cards.

So I think they really do demand that you know which cards you want and that you do tend to just hang on to them once you have them. I agree with you that it does seem like Capital One, in terms of being a sleeper agent, I feel like they are a sleeper agent as well in the aspect of how much people are really aware of how strict they can be with their credit card approvals. What I've seen a lot of is that especially for people who maybe have opened up a few new accounts recently, we're not talking about five or ten over the prior year. 

But even if someone has opened up maybe two credit cards over the prior six months, even if they have a really high credit score, it is no longer surprising or shocking for them to get denied a Capital One credit card. I think that that surprises a lot of people because, like you said, so many people know about Chase 5/24. We all scream about it all of the time. 

I think that we should be doing the same due diligence, letting people know Capital One is very, very sensitive. They don't seem to want to be approving people for their credit cards who have a recent history of opening up even several new accounts. I'm not talking about a lot, just a few new accounts. 

So, I think your point that when you are consulting with people, and you suggest to them to think about and prioritize a Capital One card application prior to Chase, that makes a lot of sense. With Capital One as well, you can only get approved, as you mentioned, for one new card every six months. That includes personal and business cards, right? 

So even if you sit down and you say, wow, I would do really well with one Capital One personal card and one Capital One business card, that plan in and of itself is going to take at least seven months to execute, right? That's assuming you're going to get approved, you can be eligible and approved for one of those immediately. 

So, again, Capital One is more of a long game sort of system. This is not a system that you're going to apply for and get approved for a lot of their cards on a very short time frame and be able to just take advantage of a lot of welcome bonuses to drive your points balance up. It can still be an absolutely fantastic credit card system to be in, but you have to understand this personality in order to craft an approach around it that is actually going to work.

Kelly: A hundred percent. I was going to mention, too, they used to never allow product changes, but there are some reports that they are starting to allow some product changes. So if you have an old card and you can't get in otherwise, you may be able to do that. Apparently you can just do it online. You don't even have to call. I just think that the habit is people get into this hobby. 

They open Chase and Amex and then they're like oh, Capital One's interesting, has a great bonus here. I think I'll go and open one and then they're denied just like me. Then they're denied and they're denied. I think I applied three or four times before I finally was let into the system. So I was like, wow, this was really challenging.

So, yeah, if you're new, if you're starting, consider it first because it may just take up one or two spots of your 5/24 and then they'll be there forever, and you can move on with your life opening the other cards. 

Devon: Absolutely. Now, let's talk about specific Capital One cards now. What are the cards that can be great for folks to have? How do you think about constructing really strong card combinations because there are these limitations about how many different Capital One cards you can hold at a given time? What do you think is a great combination of Capital One cards to have in terms of their points earning and their perks and their benefits?

Kelly: Yeah, what I love is the combination of the Venture X, which is two times points on everything. So very easy to use for non-bonus spin. Then the Saver One, which, again, I think is going to get a ton of interest in light of the new changes with the Amex Gold. 

So the Saver One is a no annual fee card. It's traditionally a cash-back card. But like you said, when you have a Venture card, you just transition those over into points instead. It has some great earning. It's three times points dining, three times points groceries, three times points streaming and three times points entertainment. You go to one Taylor Swift concert, and you have like maxed out earning. There's no other card that's getting three times points on entertainment for sure. 

So the fact this is no annual fee. It's not a coupon book. It hasn't gone up to $325. For some people, it’s going to make a lot of sense to lose that like one point addition and go down to those three points on dining and groceries. It also has no foreign transaction fees, so it can be used internationally as well. It's a MasterCard, which is, again, traditionally taken in more international locations than an Amex card. 

So between the two of those, you actually got your everyday spend, and you've got these bonus categories in the most common things that you may spend on. You can rack up your points very quickly. I will say, too, when I opened the Saver One, it had a promotion to get 10 times points on Uber and Uber Eats for a year. I believe that promotion went on for about a year. Mine will be through the end of 2024. Yeah, I live in a big city. We use Uber. We use Uber Eats. Ten times points multiplier is incredible. That racks up a ton of points, again, on this no annual fee card that I really just see as icing on the cake.

Devon: Yeah, I agree with you. We can touch on this a little bit, but traditionally Capital One had two technically cash-back cards. Of course, they named them almost identically. So it's impossible for me and my brain to keep straight. But they had one called the Saver One Rewards card, which is what you've been talking about. 

Kelly: Yes.

Devon: This really solid three times points earning on multiple different categories. No annual fee card. The other card that they had offered for a while was called the Saver Rewards card. So Saver One Rewards and Saver Rewards.

Kelly: Yes. 

Devon: The Saver Rewards card had a little bit higher bonus points earning in some categories and had a nominally higher annual fee. But this card is now closed to new applicants as of very recently in July. So Capital One said you no longer can apply for a Saver Rewards card from scratch, which I think was a loss. 

I'm hoping it's an indication that they're going to be a little bit more innovative and bring on some new card products. But even if they don't the ability to have that Saver Rewards card, get three times points on so many categories, no annual fee. You can couple that with a Venture Rewards card, which, like you said, is going to offer you two times points on all spend. If you're not going to get the benefit from that higher annual fee Venture X Rewards card then just the regular Venture Rewards card has a $95 fee. 

I really don't think there's another two card combination on the personal side where you can hold two personal cards, earn transferable points, have a combined $95 annual fee that's going to allow you to earn at least two points on everything, if not three points on a lot of categories that don't have a cap on your points spend.

You're comparing and saying that especially with the changes that have just come down from American Express on the personal gold card that you think the Saver Rewards card is really going to stand up a stiff competition. I agree because one of the things we see on the personal Amex Gold card, we've seen it on the grocery bonus category for a while. 

But one of the new changes is that Amex is bringing this into the dining category as well. They're starting to put caps on how many points or the maximum amount of spend you can have annually that's going to earn annual points, the maximum amount of points in a bonus category. 

While that is still fairly high for both of those categories on the Amex personal Gold, we're not seeing them drop that down to like $3,000 of spend over the course of a year. I still think it's beneficial. A card that has no points earning cap, I think, is always going to be a stronger kind of proposition than a card that you do have to track and make sure that you're not exceeding those points earning caps on. 

So I think that that combination, a Saver Rewards card plus some version of a Venture card is one of the most underrated points earning card combinations in the entire transferable points space. I say that as someone who loves and uses Chase and Amex cards. I really don't think that we give enough attention to the Capital One cards, especially that combination. I'm curious to hear from you. What do you think is going to happen in the wake of Capital One retiring their Saver Rewards card? 

Kelly: I agree. I think they're trying to be more competitive with the other systems out there that are offering more bonus categories. I imagine maybe they closed it because they just weren't getting a huge uptake since they had this no annual fee card, which was very, very close in earning to what they were offering on their $95 Saver. 

But I do think they're trying to be more competitive and thoughtful about where they're going to add in bonus categories. And maybe we'll start to see some more that are geared toward travel as well. But that benefit about having the system with the lowest annual fee, they win hands down there.

Another point is that the credit limits, once they do approve you, the credit limits they give are incredible for a no annual fee card. Sometimes with the Chase, and especially the Chase business system, we can see those very, very low credit limits that they dish out for a no annual fee card. They're dishing out one of the highest credit limits that I have on my Saver one. So, yeah, it really lends to that benefit that there's not caps on all this spending. 

So say you had a wedding and you needed to pay for catering and that codes as grocery or restaurant or whatever, and there's no cap on it. Well, good for you. You're going to be able to put that on your card and really reap the rewards of that. 

Devon: Yeah, and I think that comment about the credit limits is such an important one because for those of us, a lot of us, the most amount of spend we have over the course of a year ends up being non-category spend. So it can be a real kind of kick in the pants to get your non-category card and have it have a low credit limit on it when that might be the card that you want to rely on for, again, just everyday expenses. 

But also if you do have single high expenses. I know a lot of people want to earn points on paying for tuition for their kids or for family members, or they want to earn points, like you said, for hosting a large event. That becomes very challenging if the card that you want to use for those expenses doesn't have a credit limit that's large enough to really allow you to easily put those charges on. 

So I think that that, again, is one of those points that maybe it's not the primary consideration of why someone would get into a specific ecosystem or use a specific card. But you start noticing some of these differences and their impacts as you really start trying to put these cards to use. So that is a really fantastic point about Capital One. 

The last thing that we want to get into is, in some ways, the most fun part of having all of these conversations about earning points, which is what can we do with these points? Capital One, of course, as we've mentioned, has become a transferable points currency, which is one of the best moves they've made in the last couple of years. They are now up to 18 transfer partners, including 15 airline partners and three hotel transfer partners. 

So I'd love to hear from you, which ones do you think are the most valuable or useful when it comes to getting a lot of value out of their points? What do you think are some of the weaknesses of Capital One's transfer partner menu, if there are any at all? 

Kelly: Yeah, well, this is where I also think they fill in some of the gaps. So they have the programs that everybody has. They have the Emirates. They've got the Flying Blue. They've got the Aeroplan. They've got the British Airways Avios. So, yeah, we have all those things. But there's a couple of things that they have that I really want to hold on to for that reason. One is Turkish. You know, Turkish miles can be awfully hard to come by. They're in Capital One, Citi, and Bilt. 

They've also got Asia Miles, Cathay, which you can get on Amex, but I've been using those more frequently. I'm finding them really valuable, and they're not on Chase. So I want to have a constant flow of those as well. Avianca as well, which are also not in Chase, but on Amex, which you can get really good value out of. 

A couple other smaller points. They have EVA, which apparently EVA is a little bit of a difficult program to use, but they release tons of award availability to their own members. So since they're releasing so little space to partners these days, if you want to fly that airline, you'll probably need to book, especially more than one seat, you'll need to book it through their own program. Then they also have Finnair, which, of course, just joined Avios and just gave the option to transfer Avios between the programs.

But sometimes there is a little bit of an advantage of directly transferring into somebody's Avios program because then you don't have to wait for a second transfer to occur if you're trying to go after a really valuable booking. We're starting to see those sweet spots with Finnair start to appear that might be less expensive than other Avios programs. 

On the hotel side, I think Wyndham and Choice are just kind of interesting overlooked programs. Wyndham, especially for their VRBO partnership, where you can book those with a very, very low amount of Wyndham points. I think as little as 15,000 Wyndham points per bedroom per night when it comes to VRBOs. Then Choice, which can be really helpful, I think, for some of the Nordic countries where hotels can be extremely expensive. 

So these, again, little like sleeper programs, things that aren't super popular. They have all the popular ones, but then they have these other options, which, again, is why I'm hoarding them a little bit because I want to look for those sweet redemptions in these programs where I may not have just a glut of other points to transfer.

Devon: Yeah, I think those are such a great point. When I look at the sort of full transfer menu of Capital One, there's a couple of things that stand out to me. One of the things that I'm always interested in looking at for any of the points currencies is what are the unique transfer partners? Are there any airlines or hotels that I can only access with this one single points currency? Does that matter to me? 

In terms of Capital One, I do think it's a strength that they play so well with other points currencies. They have overlapping transfer partners with so many other currencies, which can be so, so helpful, especially if you are someone who has more than one points currency that you're earning at any one point. But in terms of unique transfer partners, I don't think that Capital One has any that just get me super, super excited. You mentioned Finnair, which can be useful, but we do have access to Finnair through the overall Avios program.

The other one that I'm thinking about is TAP Portugal. So Capital One is a unique transfer partner of TAP Portugal. I don't actually know if that matters to anybody, TAP Portugal. It's got a limited route network compared to a lot of other international airlines. They do release a ward space. I've heard that especially their premium cabin is good. It's not amazing. It's not horrible. 

It's just one of those programs that I can't imagine anybody deliberately getting into Capital One specifically so they have access to TAP Portugal. Like, you know what I mean? Like as the main sort of driver of why you want to get into this system. But on the other hand, I do think their transfer partnership with Turkish Airlines is really compelling. 

So as you mentioned, it's not that Turkish is the sole transfer partner of Capital One. They also accept transfers from Citi and Bilt. But for people who traditionally have only been in Chase, only been in American Express, or only been in those two, I think the biggest, biggest weakness of Chase and Amex as a combined dual points ecosystem is that they do not transfer directly to Turkish Airlines. So I love that Capital One opens up the door to that transfer.

Another thing that I think should be kind of acknowledged and recognized is that Capital One does not have any domestic airline transfer partners. That may or may not matter to folks, depending, of course, on your travel patterns or what you want to get out of your points or miles. For people who are planning to travel just predominantly domestically, I think I would argue that Capital One would not be the first points system that I would recommend for them. 

But if what you're really hoping to do with your miles is actually travel internationally, then I don't think this is that big of a weakness personally. But what do you think about Capital One's weaknesses with their transfer partners? 

Kelly: Yeah, I agree on the domestic side. Yeah, if you're going to be using points to book a lot of domestic travel, this won't be the most satisfying program for you. But as we're seeing domestic programs raise their internal rates just more and more and more, like most of us are going to a lot of the international programs, even to book domestic flights. 

So don't let that turn you off. I think not seeing a domestic program at first can be a big turnoff. But once you understand the value of what the international programs offer, I think that will show you that this is an exciting program. 

Devon: Absolutely. All right. One last question before we wrap up today is just can you share with us what has been just your favorite use of Capital One points? What has been your best redemption? It doesn't have to do anything with redemption value, but just what's been your favorite use of Capital One points?

Kelly: It was actually on Turkish. I was going on a trip with some friends from med school who were going to Spain and Portugal. I said, hey, I have a few days off. I'll come over and meet you. So I flew Turkish all the way from LAX to Istanbul to Barcelona. 

That trip was booked rather last minute for me, meaning like within a few months and not like a full year out. So the cool thing about the Turkish program is, yes, they've raised their point values and yes, the saver availability out of LAX is practically zero. Like I've searched a whole year at a time and never found it. But they have what's called last seat availability, which is where if there is a business class seat open on a flight, it is available to book with points at their standard rates.

So I actually spent 115,000 points, again, to get all the way from LAX to Istanbul to Barcelona, which I felt like was a fine deal. It's a 13 hour flight to Istanbul and then another business class flight to Barcelona, which was available. I got to fly on their Dreamliner product, which was fantastic. Of course, their food is excellent. So that's why I really want to keep these around because I want to look for more Turkish flights because they have such a fantastic network all over the world, both to Europe and to Asia, that I am kind of keeping these around for future trips in that regard.

Devon: That's exactly what I am saving all of my Capital One points for, as well is specifically Turkish Airlines flights, because when you can find a saver award, that's fantastic. When you can't, that last award availability is crucial, especially if you are trying to book multiple premium cabin tickets. It can be challenging to do that. So if you're willing to accept a little bit of a higher points price but to be able to get 13 plus hours in a wonderful business class product, I think it's worth it as well. So get those Capital One points, save them for whatever matters most to you. Just don't forget about Turkish Airlines as a potential use. 

That is everything we have for you today, everybody. I hope that this conversation has been helpful for you to learn more about the Capital One ecosystem and what role it can play in your credit card portfolio and points travel plans. Kelly, as always, thank you so much for joining me today, for sharing your tips and your expertise. I appreciate it so much. 

Kelly: So great to see you. Again, can't wait to see you next month. 

Devon: All right. Have a great week, everybody. 

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Point Me to First Class. If you want more tips on turning your expenses into travel, visit pointmetofirstclass.com to learn more. See you next week.