86. ANA’s Around the World Ticket: The Best-Kept Secret in Points and Miles with Devan Sullivan of The Pointsisters

Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel the world. I'm your host, Devon Gimbel, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest untapped asset if you know how to leverage them. Ready to dive into the world of credit card points and miles so you can travel more, travel better, and travel often? Let's get started.

Devon: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Point Me to First Class podcast. I have an incredible guest joining me today. She's one half of the sibling award expert duo known as the Pointsisters, Devan Sullivan. Devan has been traveling the world on points and miles since the age of 15 and has been to over 70 countries. 

She lives in San Diego with her husband, and along with her sister, Kelsi, she specializes in booking ANA Around the World award tickets for herself and others. I don't think there's literally anyone in the world, probably including people who work in and for ANA, who knows more about these awards than Devan and Kelsi. So, I'm so excited that she's here today to dive into this topic with all of us. 

This year alone, Devan has been on two Around the World trips herself, including a seven-week extremely delayed honeymoon and a four-week adventure around the globe, but she and her sister, Kelsi, have helped book over 40 other ANA Around the World awards for their clients and friends. Today, she is here to break it all down for us, everything we need to know about this unique award opportunity. 

We're going to talk about what makes ANA Around the World awards such an incredible value, the ins and outs of constructing an ANA Around the World ticket, including tips to follow and pitfalls to avoid, and hear highlights from Devan's own Around the World journeys. Devan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here today. 

Devan: Hi, Devon. Thank you for having me. We're really going to confuse people with our names today. 

Devon: I'm having a moment where I'm getting confused because I really didn't think it was going to happen that I was ever going to have a guest with the same name, although we do spell our names differently. So I will try to keep this straight today.

Devan: Perfect. Well, it's so great to be here and really thank you so much for having me. I can't wait to dive in to the ANA Around the World ticket and show your listeners how amazing this ticket can be if you really utilize it to your advantage. 

Devon: Yeah, I think in some ways this is almost like the best kept secret in award travel. I feel like the people who do know about it obviously are really enthusiastic about it, but this is not what I would consider to be like a beginner level award or the first thing that folks tend to learn about in terms of points and miles. So I think that this is going to be a surprise and a very exciting surprise to so many people listening to this today. So I really cannot wait to get into all of it with you. 

But before we get specifically into talking about the ANA Around the World tickets, can you just start off by introducing us a little bit more to you? Tell us about your background in points and miles. How long have you been in this hobby? What got you started? 

Devan: Yeah. So, you know, as Devon mentioned, I have been in points and miles since I was around the age of 15. Now, granted, my family, I grew up abroad. We're American, but we always had to find different ways to be able to come to the U.S. at a cheaper rate. Especially we only grew up in Mexico. I know now that doesn't seem like it was very expensive to get to Mexico. It's not now. But in the early 2000s, it was, especially for a family of four. So my family was always looking for ways to be creative of how we could get to the United States to see our family. 

So really, our points and miles journey started out with very simple redemptions, not great redemptions by any means in the standards of today. But it was for us to be able to go see our family. Technically, we've been using points and miles since I was like a baby, but I personally was not booking them. 

So I finally started learning when I was around 15. That is what I booked them for. Ever since then, I've sort of just gone down the deep, dark rabbit hole of, you know, opening up credit cards and figuring out how to make as many points as possible and how to make those points last as much as possible because I'm not a super, super high income earner. I'm also not spending thousands upon thousands of dollars every month. So I really had to get creative. 

Devon: So walk me through how do you go from kind of learning about this world, like you said around age 15 or so to then learning specifically about the ANA Around the World ticket. But not just learning about it, but truly diving in and becoming, I think, one of the foremost experts in this very, very small area of award travel.

Devan: Yeah, it's definitely a niche area. That's for sure. When I try to explain this to get to people, usually you just see their mind like blowing. That's sort of what happened to me. Again, I love traveling. I'm so fortunate to say I've been to over 70 countries and points and miles have given me at least 90% of that. So when I found this ticket, my mind blew. I am that type of person. I know this about myself is I have an addictive personality. It's not healthy. Don't be me. But once I figured out that this existed, and I didn't believe it. I truly was like, this is too good to be true. There's no way this is possible. Skeptic over here. 

So anyway, I dove in. I was like okay, I'm going to believe what these blogs are saying. I went for it. It was not nearly as hard as I thought it would be. I'm not going to say it's easy. It is not an easy booking by any means. It's definitely more advanced. You do have to know things. Like I think I have just routings in my brain that are going off at all times. I'll wake up at 2 in the morning and think of another routing that is possible. So, again, don't be me. That's addiction. But I think that's really how I got into it is because I figured it out, and it was just mind blowing the first time I booked my first one. 

Devon: I think there is something that is so relatable about that to everybody listening. So again, whether or not someone's ever heard of this specific award, I think for those of us who are very enthusiastic about this hobby, it's because we've had that same experience somewhere where we learned some piece of this and thought wait a minute. Is this too good to be true? This sounds like it's too good to be true or it's dangerous, or it's a scam. If it's not, I think I may have just like solved the mystery of the universe. Isn't this the greatest thing ever? 

So that's why I think it's so fun to learn about all these different areas in points and miles because there are so many different options and opportunities that are available to all of us. But I think so many of us can relate to sort of that love affair of finding some aspect of award travel that just is so fascinating to us and that we really want to master.

One of the things that you said about the ANA Around the World ticket is that you thought it was too good to be true. Tell me why that was your first impression when you learned about this and explain to some other folks who've never heard of what this award is. What is it that we're actually talking about today? 

Devan: Sure. So the ANA Around the World ticket is a ticket where you get to lump in multiple itineraries, and you're going around the world. So you're not crisscrossing the world. Literally, you are going around it. You have to cross the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, and you have to go in the same continuous movement around the world. But what's really cool about it is that you can have like up to eight to 12 stops. It just depends on how many grand transportations you have. Basically, that's just when you stop in a country for like 24 hours and then you leave it. 

But the way it works is that it can be for as little as 105,000 points for all of those flights in business class per person. If I'm putting that into perspective for people, let's say you would get four flights at the 105K mark. It's a graph that tells me how much it's going to cost. I can explain that a little bit later. But that's probably around four flights around the world for 105,000 points per person, all business class. Those same four flights would probably be equivalent to 350 to 500,000 points per person if I weren't to book it on the Around the World.

Devon: Yeah. I think that just really bears repeating because this was something that was very hard for me to understand when I first learned about this award was the fact that we are talking about using a points currency that a lot of people have access to. So specifically, you need to have, at least currently the way that the transfer partners work, you need to have American Express points. But so many people have Amex points. 

Especially the last couple of years, it seems like American Express has just been throwing huge card offers around where it's so easy to get approved for their cards to earn a ton of Amex points. I've talked on this podcast before about my undying love for Rakuten and how easy it is to earn a lot of points for your online shopping. The fact that, like you said, this is an opportunity where you can book multiple flights, and you work your way around the entire globe, and you can do that for what is honestly just at this point like an astoundingly low rate of points. 

You commented specifically on booking a business class Around the World trip, which you said could be around 115,000 Amex points total per person. We're not saying 115,000 points per leg and then maybe you construct five or six or seven legs. You're saying the entire trip around the world is around 115,000 points per person. To put that into context, I think there are people who are varying degrees of experience booking award flights, listening to this podcast. Let's kind of compare apples to apples. 

If somebody else wanted to book a round trip, just quote unquote regular business class award from the United States somewhere else. I can throw in some ideas as well, but I'm curious just from your own booking experience, like give us some examples of how much you think sort of reasonable business class award flights would cost. 

Devan: Yeah. So let's say we wanted to do the U.S. to Asia round trip. The absolute cheapest you could get that for, and I'm not talking when there are promos or anything like that, but like the absolute cheapest you could probably get that for in business class for one person round trip, I would say probably anywhere between 180 and 210,000 points, give or take. 

Devon: Yeah. I'm shaking my head in agreement because I would put that estimate spot on as well. I think a lot of times we focus on talking about sweet spot awards when they're actually available, when you can find them. Classic example is the one way business class award flight from the States to Europe on Air France Flying Blue. 

Lately, I haven't seen any of those, but when they do exist, they tend to be about 50,000 points per person, one way in business class. So, if you can score yourself two of those for a round trip business class flight to Europe, we're talking 100,000 points per person. I consider that a great deal. That's one round trip business class flight.

In comparison, you're talking about booking an around the world trip. So not just a one city. You said you can take eight or twelve stops. We'll talk about what some of the minimums are, but what is the fewest number of actual flight segments that you can have on an ANA Around the World trip? 

Devan: The absolute fewest flights you can have is three. 

Devon: Right. So we're talking about at least three. Most people, it sounds like, tend to do more than three, but a minimum of three, again, business class flights go all the way around the world for equal to or less than the cost of many just individual round trip award tickets. Not even to mention the fact that the opportunity to go and visit multiple destinations, multiple continents, such an amazing opportunity here. 

So let's talk a little bit more about the details of booking one of these awards. So I know I already mentioned that you need to, at least right now, specifically have American Express points because those are the only transferable points currencies that right now transfer to ANA, which is the airline that hosts this program that you can book things through. Beyond kind of that baseline, what are some other things that folks need to know about how an ANA Around the World ticket works? 

Devan: Sure. So there are a lot of rules. Because it is such an amazing ticket, there are a lot of rules with this. So I'm going to go through them one by one. I have a little cheat sheet that I just brought up because I don't want to forget a rule and then be like oh, I forgot. Okay. 

So the first one is most important. I want everyone to close their eyes while they're listening to this podcast. I want you to imagine a map of the world. Then I want you to divide it into three. The three is going to be North America and South America. So the Americas. We are going, for the purposes of this podcast, call that Region One. Then Region Two is going to be Europe and Africa. Then Region Three is going to be Asia and Oceania. Again, that is literally just for the purposes of this podcast. If you are not in the United States and you are somewhere else, you can call your region Region One. It doesn't matter. 

The whole idea behind this is you do have to hit one country minimum in each region that I just talked about. So you have to hit one region in the Americas. I'm going to assume the majority of people listening to this podcast is probably in the United States, but maybe Canada, Mexico, South America, wherever you are. So I'm going to assume you're in Region One. So that means you're starting and ending in Region One. This means you've already checked it off your list. So Region One is already done. Cool.

Region Two, you have to go somewhere in Europe or Africa. I don't care where, but at least one country. You can go to multiple within each region, but at least one. Then you have to make your way to Asia or Oceania. So Australia, New Zealand, whatever it is. You have to hit one country in each of those regions and you can do it the opposite way. So you can start in Region One, go to Region Three, Region Two, back to Region One, or you can do Region One to Region Two to Region Three. It does not matter. That part doesn't matter. It just needs one country in each of those regions. 

You also have to take flights that are operated by ANA or any Star Alliance partners. This is where knowing your Star Alliance team members is really, really important. Because one thing that people tend to not understand about the ANA Around the World is because it's called ANA, they think they are either solely flying ANA or that they have to fly ANA. That is not true. You do not have to fly ANA at all on this Around the World. 

My first Around the World, I did not actually get on an ANA flight. I only flew Star Alliance partners. So you do not have to fly ANA and you also do not have to go to Japan. I have heard that everyone thinks they have to go to Japan. You do not. 

Your trip must be a minimum of 10 days long. So I'm pretty sure anyone listening to this podcast could figure out how to finagle at least 10 days off, hopefully a little bit more than that. But you do have to be flying for at least 10 days, and the maximum amount of time this trip can be is one year. I've never seen anyone do it. It would be a very difficult ticket to book for the one year mark, but I have done a booking of six months. So that is possible. 

Again, your flight direction, you either have to go east to west or west to east. Again, you're not zigzagging the world. You are going around the world. So once you go from Region One to Region Two, you can no longer go back to Region One. So you have to stay in the region until you are done with that region and you want to move on to your next region.

Then you cannot backtrack, as I mentioned. So you can't go from Region Three back to Region Two. You have to continuously go east to west. You must cross both the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean. That's a non-negotiable. Then you have a maximum of 12 segments, eight stopovers and four ground transportations. So sometimes people think of it as they get 12 countries. It really depends on which ANA rep you get to what they count. The way I like to see it is you can go up to eight countries, and you could have four long layovers to make that 12 segment mark work if you really wanted. But just think of it as eight countries that you could go to and then four ground transportation. 

So a ground transportation for anyone who is like, what the heck is that? It basically means if I fly from, I'm based in San Diego. So if I fly from San Diego to Frankfurt on Lufthansa because I know Lufthansa is a Star Alliance partner, and I fly to Frankfurt. That is one segment. Then let's say I actually want to go around Europe. I don't want to use any of my flights or mileage. That's part of that ticket. 

Let's say I make my way to Paris. So technically, if you think of a map, I am backtracking. That type of backtracking is allowed. It's totally fine because it's in the same region. I could, let's say, get myself to Paris on my own. Then I would fly from Paris to Bangkok, to Region Three. So those totally possible. That's the only time backtracking is permitted is when it's within region. That is considered a ground transport. I got myself from Frankfurt to Paris. 

You can have a maximum of three stopovers in Europe. No one I know has ever done that. So really need to worry about that rule. Four stopovers in Japan. That's a maximum up to. Again, I've never heard anyone even consider utilizing those four stopovers that are allowed. Basically, sometimes you can place this ticket on hold, but usually you can't. 

So the biggest downside, I will say, of the Around the World ticket is that once you decide you want to do it, you need to transfer your American Express points over to ANA because it takes two to four days for those points to transfer. The likelihood that the whole itinerary you found before transferring your points won't be available in two to four days. These tickets go quickly. 

So once you decide to do it Around the World, you should transfer your points and then search. But yeah, basically, you have to decide that this is what you want to do before even searching for the flights. You just have to be super flexible. I would say it's not a written rule of the ANA Around the World, but it's Devan's rule of the ANA Around the World. Yes, I just talked about myself in third person, which I realize can get confusing again. So I mean, me as in Devan. But yeah, so I realized I just rambled on and on and on about rules. But these rules are very important to understand to figure out the ANA Around the World ticket.

Devon: Yeah, because the rules really form like the building blocks. You can't put one of these things together until you kind of understand what are some of the not limitations, but what are the boundaries that you kind of have to work within in order to make it so that this is going to work out. I'm really curious to hear from you. You talked about kind of the minimums, right, that you need to have a minimum number of flight segments and it can go all the way up to a maximum number. 

But can you just give us some examples since you've booked so many of these for so many people? If I came to you and said, I want to do an Around the World award on ANA, but I want it to be just very basic. I don't want to try to cram in too many things. I want to just keep it really, really straightforward. Can you give us just one or two examples of what you would consider to be like a basic routing on one of these award tickets? Then can you take us to the other end of the spectrum and talk about, can you remember what the most kind of ambitious ANA award ticket that you put together was? 

Devan: Yeah, so I think both of mine fall on both of those spectrums, actually. So sure, I will use my like lower level one and please know I'm using like quotations on that because it still was an amazing Around the World. But this summer, I really wanted to go see Taylor Swift in Europe, and I had to be in Boston. Again, I live on the West Coast. So, I had to be on the East Coast for my grandmother's 90th birthday party. In my mind, what made most logical sense was to get there the long way around the world. Rather than just fly the five hours from San Diego to Boston, I was going to fly around the world to get there because that made sense. 

So what I did was this Around the World, I actually had to start in Canada because you can start really in any country. It does not matter, but you do have to end in the same country. That is actually a rule, and I'm not sure I mentioned it. So there's another rule for you on the ANA Around the World. 

So I started in Vancouver, Canada, which means I bought a cash ticket from San Diego to Vancouver. Then I did the Around the World portion of this was Vancouver to Osaka, Japan. Then my husband and I spent 12 days in Japan. We flew all over, not flew, we traveled all over Japan. We really enjoyed it. We made our way to Tokyo from Osaka. So we got to go to Hiroshima, Kyoto, Hakone. We really made a cool routing there. 

So here is an example of a ground transportation. So we landed in Osaka, and we got ourselves to Tokyo. Then we flew Tokyo to Shanghai, China. We just stayed there for 24 hours, actually, just because that's how the routing worked, but we got 24 hours in Shanghai. Then we flew from Shanghai direct to Zurich, Switzerland, which is where Taylor Swift was performing and where I had tickets to the Taylor Swift show. 

We were able to enjoy that flight. So, so far, we're two flights, Vancouver to Osaka. Well, I guess technically three flights, Narita to Shanghai and then Shanghai to Zurich. Then we flew Warsaw to Toronto for the end of our Around the World. So, it was a grand total of four flights on the Around the World. It cost 105,000 points each all in business class. 

We got to enjoy 12 days in Japan, two weeks in Europe, made our way to Boston after we got to Toronto. That was, as I said, 105,000 points. I really don't want to lie about how much taxes and fees were. I don't 100 percent remember, but I want to say it was around seven hundred dollars per person. So that's like my lowest tier Around the World, where it was just a little bit more simple, not a ton of stops. It was four weeks. 

Devon: Then what is the most ambitious trip either that you've planned for yourself or that someone has requested that you've actually been able to put together for them? 

Devan: Yeah. So I would say the most ambitious trips revolve around trying to go to Australia. It's very difficult to get people to Australia on the Around the World unless you are willing to book it literally three days to four weeks out from travel. That is simply because airlines just do not release space on Star Alliance. So the airlines that fly from the U.S. to Auckland, if it's New Zealand, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, whatever it is in Australia, they simply do not release those business class seat awards until about four weeks out from travel. I really kid you not up to three days out from travel. 

So those are really hard ones to do. However, I was able to plan one for a client. She's awesome. I've actually done like three for her at this point. It's her new, like she's made it like a New Year's resolution that she will do one Around the World each year. She went from the U.S. to, I sent her to Taipei. Then she went to Japan. So Taipei then Japan then Japan to Australia, to Sydney. Then we brought her up to Darwin, Australia. Darwin, she went to Singapore, Singapore, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, Ethiopia to Kenya, Kenya to Atlanta. 

So that was a wild one. It was 170,000 points for business class. I think she was gone two and a half to three months. So she has an online business and she actually travels for work. So I was able to get her to the places she needed to be when she needed to be there, which is rare on the Around the World, but she was also super flexible and allowed me to get creative. But that's probably like the craziest one I've booked. 

Devon: Yeah, that one sounds incredibly ambitious, both in terms of just the number of flights you're trying to coordinate. Also, the length of time that you're away and all of the different kind of spots that she was able to stop in. You mentioned how many points that specific trip cost. 

Can you give us kind of an idea of the range of kind of what is the lowest points cost for an ANA Around the World to get specifically in business class? Like what's the least number of points someone could expect to pay and what's the highest number of points someone could expect to pay? Just that people have these ballpark figures in mind. 

Devan: Sure. I'm really glad you're asking this question because I did not explain how the chart works. So if you just Google ANA award chart Around the World, it will pop up. You should be able to find it. But basically, it's the amount of miles that you actually are flying around the world. You calculate those, you add them up, and then you look at how many business class points it will cost or how many points it will cost to fly business class. So it's a chart. It's a pretty easy, simple to read. 

Devon, I can share it with you. I don't know if that's something you'll be able to link maybe, but I'll try to share that with you. But the cheapest Around the World flight you can do in business class is 105,000 points. I have successfully booked one that was under that. It was 90,000 points. The only reason that is true is because they started in Hawaii, and they ended in New York. So it saved a ton of mileage. I don't usually recommend that because most people are very far from Hawaii. So anyway, 105 is realistic. 

Then maximum is, I mean, I guess, technically 300,000. But I have never booked one for more than 170. So the chart is 105, 115, 125, 145, 170. Those are like the sweet spot for award space. 

Devon: It sounds like even within that 170,000 points per person for one of these Around the World tickets in business class, you were still able to get someone, like you said, to Australia, to Japan, to Kenya a lot of different places. So it's not like you're going to be limited for choices if you even want to stay at that 170,000 points per person kind of band of distance. 

So we've talked solely right so far about business class, but are these Around the World tickets also available in economy class or premium economy class? What should people kind of expect in terms of points price or any major differences if they have their eye on economy or premium economy versus booking a business class ticket? 

Devan: Yeah. So a few things I want to mention here, and I may ask you to repeat the question if I end up going out on a tangent. So catch me if I do. But one thing I do like to mention is with business class, if you're trying to do this for more than two people, it's really not possible to do in business class. 

Economy needs to become your new best friend. There's a lot more availability in economy than there is for business class. This is true of any award booking you are doing. It is a lot harder to find three, four, five, six business class seats than it is to find one or two. So that's like one thing I like to mention about business class. 

You can 100% do this in economy. It's just cheaper points wise to do in economy. So your cheapest that you could do it for is around 65,000 points per person. The most expensive that I would see someone do it for is probably 120. All of that said, I have never booked an economy ticket on the Around the World. So I don't know. Maybe there is someone who wants to do 200,000 points for economy, which is the highest economy number you could do. But yeah, so I would say 65 to 120,000 is what it would cost in economy. 

Premium economy is not possible on this ticket, even if you find premium economy seats. Unfortunately, you can't book premium economy, and you can also do first class. I really hesitate to tell people to even consider first class because there are so few flights that have a true first class on their airline. So really, you're going to pay more to pretty much fly business class Around the World instead of really first class. You might get one or two flights in first class, but if you wanted first class, your cheapest would be 160,000 points per person. then your more expensive one would be 260,000 per person.

Devon: I have to imagine too just from what I've seen for so many different award bookings, like you said, not every single airline even offers a true first class. Even the ones that do tend to keep their award availability very, very, very low. Even if they send out an empty cabin of eight seats, they're not going to release almost ever all of those four award tickets and maybe not even one of them.

So, it sounds like the business class awards or the straight economy awards are really kind of the best bet in terms of people wanting to commit to booking one of these Around the World tickets. Now, for people who are hearing about this, again, for the first time, or maybe they've heard about this, but it didn't really sink in what an amazing opportunity this was. 

They're feeling ambitious, and they want to tackle one of these award bookings themselves. What are some of your tips about how far in advance do you recommend that people try to start constructing their own Around the World ticket? What are just sort of logistically the steps that someone wants to keep in mind that they're going to have to do from start to finish to book one of these? 

Devan: Yeah. So first I'm going to give a tip because I was this person, and it's the only reason I feel very confident in sharing this tip. I usually have to talk clients like off the edge when we are discussing the Around the World for the first time is that you want to try to keep it as simple as possible. I realize how amazing this sounds. I realize that you might be listening to this podcast. Your mind is probably blowing and you're like, I want to go see the entire world in three days.

The beauty of this ticket is that getting 105 to 170 American Express points. I truly believe anyone listening to this podcast can accrue every single year. No problem. You can make it, like my client, that it is her goal every single year to do an Around the World and you can do it if that's what you want to do. This does not need to be a once in a lifetime ticket option for you and you can do more of a slow travel.

I will tell you my honeymoon was seven weeks. It was my first Around the World that I had booked. I got a little too ambitious. I was moving every three to four days. I was exhausted. Absolutely exhausted. So the thing I can recommend is go slow and don't like overdo it when you're searching for these. 

Now, if you're like, I am ready to go full force. I'm going to give you exact steps on how you do it. So what you are going to do is number one, like I mentioned, but I want to reiterate. You want to decide you want to do the Around the World. That's number one. I know that sounds silly, but you just need to decide if it's what you're going to do because you have to transfer your American Express points to ANA. 

There is absolutely no point of searching for these flights until the points are in your account because this is not a ticket that you can book online. You have to call ANA. You will be on hold from anywhere between one to three hours listening to some horrific elevator music. It can be a little bit stressful. So number one, you have to decide you want to do it.

Once you decide that you're going to do it, you are going to transfer the amount of American Express points from American Express to ANA. So if you know you want to do business class, you have an idea of where you want to go, you can actually go to the Great Circle Mapper. I think it's dot com. Again, I'll share the link with Devon to share with you all. But you'll want to put in literally the exact routing you want to do. It will tell you how many miles that is Around the World of miles flown. 

Then you'll use the ANA chart to figure out how many points you need to send over. If you send over a little bit more, it's not the end of the world. They're just going to be stuck in your ANA account. So don't transfer all your American Express points. But if you transfer a little extra, it's not the end of the world. 

So then you're not going to do anything. Once you transfer your ANA points, you are going to sit, and you are going to wait for your ANA points to show up in your ANA account. Once that happens, again, usually two to four days after transferring, then you are going to start your search. 

There's tons of ways to search for this. I personally use seats.aero, A-E-R-O. That's just the way I like to do it. I use the United tab, Explore tab, and the Air Canada Explore tab. The reason I use those two, especially if you're a newbie at this, is because they are Star Alliance partners. So, again, you don't have to book with ANA. You can book with these two airlines as well. They're going to show you a lot of award availability for what's available for really anywhere, even if you're flying lots for any Star Alliance partner is basically what I'm trying to say. 

You are looking for promo awards. So, I think the key here, and one thing I did not understand when I first was searching, was I thought as long as I found award space, I would be able to call ANA, and they'd be like yay, there it is. No, that is absolutely not correct. So, you are looking for promo award space. 

So, an idea of numbers to keep in your mind when looking for this. U.S. to Europe, you're looking around 80,000 to 88,000 points if it's on United. If you are looking on Air Canada, it's hard, but 60,000 to 90,000, I would say, if you are looking on Air Canada. Those are the point ranges you are looking for. If a flight is that point range, you will most likely be able to find it on ANA. 

If you are flying from the U.S. to Asia, you're looking for the 110,000 point range. That is true with Oceania as well. That's if you're using United. If you're using Air Canada, it's a little bit less. It's like probably 80, 80 to 100, give or take. So, you're looking for those promo awards, those really, really good awards that are saver awards. 

Then, once you have found all your flights that you want, you are then going to call ANA. Their number is 1-800-235-9262. I did not memorize that. Don't worry, but they are saved in my phone. You'll wait on hold for one and a half to two hours, most likely.

Then, once you get on the phone with the rep, they are amazing. Absolutely amazing. I will say sometimes there is a thick accent. Sometimes you just have to be a little bit calmer, but they are so, so good at their jobs. I haven't had a bad ANA rep, and I have called them many, many, many times. 

But basically, you'll tell the rep, I want to book an Around the World on points. They will say okay, wonderful. Sounds good. Is it for one person, two people, whatever? You are going to give them each segment, segment by segment. So you are going to say, I want to book.

I'm going to use the example I have right here. So I want to book LAX to Sydney. That flight is available. Then I want to book Perth, Australia, to Johannesburg, South Africa, then Johannesburg, South Africa to Sao Paulo, Brazil, and then Sao Paulo, Brazil to Chicago. So those are the segments, one by one, that you are going to give them. 

Devon: I don't mean to interrupt you, but I do have a quick question. When you're calling ANA and you're telling them, I want these specific segments, are you also telling them on this airline like flight number 123 on United from LA to Sydney on this specific day? 

So that's all the information that when you're doing kind of your reconnaissance, when you're doing your initial kind of search for what airlines actually have that saver or promo level award availability, when you find something, you're writing down all the specific details, the day of that flight, the operating airline, the flight number, the times it's flying, and then origin and destination, and that's the information that you're feeding to the ANA rep. 

Devan: Correct, and you want to give them all that detail. So I always say that you write down each segment, and you have the flight number, date, time, and class of service. You don't have to keep repeating class of service to them unless, let's say, you're booking a business class award space, and you decide that one of the flights you want is not available in business but you're okay with booking economy. Then you tell them hey, this flight's only available in economy. I'll take the economy seat. 

But, yeah, have all of that. You'll literally spit it out. You will sound like a robot to the ANA rep. It will be fantastic. They're going to tell you how awesome you are, especially if all of the – I get complimented by ANA reps all the time because they're like wow, thank you so much for knowing what you're doing. I'm like you're welcome. It wasn't that difficult. I just wrote down flight numbers. So you have that for them.

They're going to verify availability on their end. I will say 99% of the time, as long  as you see it on United and Air Canada, and you verify, you always have to verify before calling, on the ANA website that you're seeing it to, 99.999% of the time it is available. It is on the very rare occasion where it's not, and the ANA rep will have to like work with you and try to figure things out. But, again, they're amazing. 

They will calculate the mileage flown, so they'll actually figure out how much it is. Again, I use Great Circle Mapper. It has always worked for me. I've, knock on wood, never been wrong on how much it's going to cost. Then sometimes they will calculate taxes and fees right there on the phone with you. But lately they've been telling you hey, we're going to call you back in 24 to 48 hours, and that's when we'll tell you how much taxes and fees are. Then once that is done, once you pay your taxes and fees, you're booked, life is good, and then you just get to travel. 

Devon: Generally how far in advance do you tend to book these? Is there any generalization, or is it always just a case-by-case basis? 

Devan: Yeah, so I don't want to say that they can't be booked nine to three months out. It's not that they can't. It's that you're going to have to be a whole lot more flexible and possibly fly some economy routes or split up, split up the group. That's what we've been having to do a lot lately. But we recommend that you either book 12 months ahead of time. Well 11 months, because that's when the ANA calendar opens up. 11 months from the last day of your intended travel. 

So let's say you want to have a trip that's all of July. You leave July 1st and you come back July 31st. That means you can't start searching for flights until around end of August, early September because your return flight has to be available to book. If you try and book before that, July 31st flights won't be available to book. So that's if you are super ahead of time and you just want to have it locked in, 11 months from the last day. 

Then this is actually a really good ticket as well for my super last-minute planners because if you don't do it a year ahead of time then my recommendation is about five days to one month before travel. 

Devon: I understand that recommendation. I am a compulsive planner, so the idea of planning, especially an around-the-world ticket on five days’ notice literally makes me feel like I'm having organ failure right at this moment. But I know there are people who are constantly asking where are their great deals last minute? Or where can I actually book some really great flights when I don't have the luxury of having 11/12 months lead time? 

So for those of you who it doesn't make you want to die, imagining planning a trip five days in advance, it sounds like it could be a really great opportunity to find some incredible award space. 

Devan: Yeah. I will say, if you want to go to Australia or New Zealand, pretty much I'm going to tell you five days to one month before is when we can book because it just simply doesn't open up. It's very, very rare that it opens up. 

Devon: It's great to know what to expect on that. Now, one of the things that you mentioned before is that even though you book this entire itinerary, again, through ANA, it's not mandatory that you fly an ANA aircraft for any portion of this journey, but you do have to book Star Alliance Airlines. There's a lot of different Star Alliance Airlines.

I'm curious, again, in your experience of having searched for these awards and booked so many of them, are there specific Star Alliance Airlines that you think are really high yield in terms of availability and more reasonable out-of-pocket taxes, surcharges, fees? Are there some Star Alliance partners that if people have the ability to avoid, you recommend trying not to build in to an ANA Around the World itinerary? 

Devan: Sure. So I would say the only ones that I would try to avoid, like actively avoid, are the ones with really high surcharges. So that means that your taxes and fees are just going to be higher. Now, again, that doesn't mean you will be able to avoid them. I personally have taken an Around the World with the three that I'm going to say, but I did know that my taxes and fees were going to be significantly higher than they would have been if not.

So those three are going to be Austrian Airlines, Lufthansa, and Swiss. I also really disliked Swiss, and I am not someone who dislikes business class. Like people usually like crap all over Ethiopian.  I love Ethiopian. So I just didn't really like Swiss. But those are going to be the ones that give you like the highest taxes and fees. So if you can avoid them, I would. Sometimes you're not going to be able to because it's simply what's available. 

Then the ones that I really like to look for, and it's again, because I know the taxes and fees are going to be on the lower level, Aegean, Air Canada, Air New Zealand. When you can find the space, very, very rare. Avianca, EVA, by far my favorite. They give you pajamas. It's amazing. Clearly, I'm easy to impress. TAP Portugal as well and then United. 

United, again, is one of those where it's hit or miss, or it could be a very last minute booking where they do open something up. But those are going to be the ones where you're paying like $5 per flight or $5.60 per flight. So it's going to really keep those taxes and fees down. I also really like Ethiopian. As I mentioned, they just tend to have a lot of availability. They go to so many places in both Africa and Europe and Asia. So they're just a great connector, which I like a lot. 

Devon: Okay, I got momentarily distracted by what you said about Swiss Airlines. Now I'm dying to know, what was it about Swiss that you did not personally like? Because I've actually flown their business class a few times. I don't think that it's industry leading by any means whatsoever, but I consider them, at least in my experience, it's been really solid. I would not actively avoid them. So I'm always really curious to hear what makes a not great experience for you on an airline, just so that we can all know if that's another airline that might not fit our personal preferences as well. 

Devan: Yeah, so one, I think I didn't get the right aircraft. Like I got their older aircraft. So to be fair, I would fly Swiss again in a heartbeat. If it's a business class seat, I'm going to get on it, but we were very delayed. What I really didn't like about the seats is that the seat dropped like into the floor. Not into the floor. That makes it sound weird. But like you drop rather than rise. Like most business class seats, you rise up. This one, you like fall down. 

It was 2-2-2 configuration. So even though I was sitting next to my husband, which is fine, he's a large man. Like he's 6'4", 6'5". like jumping over him every second to go to the bathroom was annoying. I know people are probably thinking well, why don't you just take the aisle seat? He usually likes the aisle so that he has even more leg room. So yeah, it was just like I didn't like that. 

The service was great. The food, actually, I did have a soup on there that was phenomenal. So that was nice. But yeah, so I wouldn't say don't fly them. But I would say for the taxes and fees. Because for that flight only, I paid probably $500 per person just for that one leg, which, to me, is a little pricey for an Around the World ticket. 

Devon: Yeah, especially like you said when there are so many other Star Alliance carriers that, assuming there is a ward availability on, you can go ahead and book and they're not going to come with those really high taxes and fees. So that makes so much sense. 

One of the things that you said before that I'm really curious to hear you kind of expand on is you said in terms of expectations, one of your biggest tips is that people just need to be prepared to be flexible if this is a ticket that they want to book. Can you talk more about what that means? What should people kind of have in mind? Also, are there some people for whom you actually just don't think an Around the World ticket is a great thing for them to shoot for? 

Devan: Yeah, so great question. I love this question because I want everyone to know Around the World, but this is not the perfect ticket for a lot of people. I would say those people that it's not a perfect ticket for is that if you have exact dates that you need to be somewhere for a wedding, I don't know, bat mitzvah. I don't know what you would be traveling for. But if there's like something you're going to that you have to be there a certain day and there's no flexibility around those days, or you're like well, I have one day of flexibility, that's just not what this ticket is for. 

When I think of what I'm doing, like for example when I flew to Zurich to see Taylor Swift, the only available flight was a week before the concert. Well, then I had to be in Zurich, and I made a trip out of it, right? I ended up going to Milan, which I didn't even say earlier, but I did end up going to Milan and Lake Como and all of that. So I got like an extra bonus trip out of it is how I see it. 

But if I was like no, I need to be there July 8th, and I'm not willing to go any earlier then this isn't the ticket for you. Let's just buy you a round trip ticket to Europe or whatever it is. 

The other thing that I find is people get really confused, even though I try to explain the like regions and that you have to go to each region. Every single inquiry I get about an Around the World booking never includes all three regions. Like they literally include Europe and or Asia but not the other. I'm like no, you have to. It's not a choice. 

I don't care if you spend 25 hours in Europe or in Asia, but you have to go there. You have to be there for more than 24 hours. So I would say if there's someone who's like, I'm afraid of one part of the world, probably not the right ticket for you, which is totally valid.

Devon: Yeah, that's so great to know. Then one of the other things that I'm curious about is if you've gone through kind of all the legwork, right, to search for available awards segments, you've been on the phone, like you said, possibly on hold for one to three hours, listening to ANA's music. You've gotten ahold of one of their reps, and you've actually constructed and ticketed one of these itineraries.

One of the questions that I really commonly get from folks just booking regular award tickets is, what happens if something changes? What happens if one of the flights gets canceled or delayed? Or what happens if I'm booking this 11 months ahead of time and five months out, I realize that I want to change one of the segments. Is this something that we should assume once we booked, it's set in stone and you've got what you've got? Or what are some of just the realities around changing one of these itineraries? 

Devan: Yes. So yes, it's pretty much set in stone, but also no. So this ticket is fully cancelable. You can cancel the ticket, no problem. It is a $30 charge, or I think they take 3,000. Sorry, you can't even pay the $30 anymore because I asked. I had to cancel one recently. It's 3,000 points to cancel, and they'll just deduct it from what you'll get back. So if you booked 125,000 mile one, it's going to be 122,000 that you get back. It's not the end of the world. You can cancel them.

The only annoying thing is you have to call to cancel, and you have to wait two to three hours to get through to cancel. So you really have to be ready to cancel. So that's cancellation, 100% possible, 3,000 points. 

If you want to change the flight segments, this also requires a call. Basically any type of change, cancellation, just assume you're going to be on hold for two plus hours every single time you make a change, and it's fantastic. That's pure sarcasm if you couldn't hear that.

But anyway, so if you want to make a change, the only changes you can make are, and I'm going to try to hit them all. If you want to change the date but it is the same exact routing. So let's say you wanted to go LAX to Sydney on October 15th today but now you want to leave on October 20th. If the same exact flight is available, so the United flight from LAX to Sydney nonstop is available on October 20th in business class, you can switch to it. 

You can also switch to it if it's an economy. So you can always go down a class of service. You can't go up class of service. So you can go down to economy, and you can book that same exact flight for the day. Those totally fine.

You could also change the timing. So let's say United has three flights from LAX to Sydney every single day. One's at 10 a.m., one's at 12 p.m., one's at 2 p.m. You have the 12 p.m. flight, but on October 20th the 10 a.m. flight, I don't even remember the times I gave you, but whatever. The 10 a.m. flight is available, and you want that one. You can switch from the 12 p.m. flight to the 10 a.m. flight. That's totally fine. 

The last change that is allowed is if let's say you wanted to do Australia, and you book it 11 months out. There is no business class available. You book everything else in business class, but you have to get economy for that one segment. Well, let's say now we're a month away from travel, and your same exact flight has opened up business class. You can switch from economy up to business. So those are all the changes that can be done. 

Devon: But every single one of those necessitates its own call to ANA any time you want to change. None of these changes can be facilitated online through your online reservation booking number, right? 

Devan: Correct. For example, my trip that I went on, and I started in Canada and ended in Canada in the summer, my husband and I actually had to split the itineraries in Warsaw. There weren't two seats available in business class from Warsaw to Toronto. So on July 11th, I was going to fly Warsaw to Toronto, and then on July 12th, he was going to take the same exact flight just 24 hours after me. So that's what I initially booked. 

Then when we were in Vancouver about to start our Around the World, I noticed that on his day, a flight opened up. Not the same one, still different times, but I switched so that we were flying just five hours apart. So I had to call to switch to July 12th. Then I found out literally the day of travel that a business class seat opened up on his exact flight, and I had to call ANA to switch me to that flight. So that was three calls, the first to book it, the second to change, and the third to change. That was probably six hours worth of ANA hold time. 

Devon: So pack your patience is what you're saying. If you want to book one of these tickets, both in terms of doing the initial award searches, finding the availability, and then going ahead and actually getting them ticketed and/or changed if necessary, just walk into it knowing that one of the things you're going to have to expect is that it is going to require one at least phone call and possibly more. But what you get for that, again, is an absolutely amazing value in terms of what you can book using relatively very, very few points. 

Now, one of the last things I'm curious to hear you talk about before we wrap up today is having done a couple of these trips yourself, having booked them for so many people as well. Is there a surprising stop or city that you think often gets overlooked but that people should really consider when planning their Around the World trip? 

Devan: Oh, this is a good one. I feel like I know this isn't one place, this is a continent, but Africa tends to get missed a lot, especially Northern Africa. I think some people with geography are a little bit confused about, they're like, well, it's connected to the Middle East. It's not like Africa is absolutely incredible. I think going to Africa on this ticket and really anywhere in Africa, I'm being very broad here because I think you could pick any country within this region and you would just have your mind blown. So probably Africa.

I will say this with 50% of the people I speak to who we try to book this for they're like steer clear of Africa. I will not touch the continent. Then 50% are like get me to Africa. I am ready to go. So it really just depends. But I would say if you can go somewhere, if you can afford a safari yes, they are expensive. But right now, Kenya, the JW Marriott, you could do on points. So if you can find a way to make it work, wow, that would be an incredible trip to be able to do a safari on points plus have an Around the World ticket. 

Devon: Yes. This is not related specifically to going on safari. But if you are already in the region of East Africa or South Africa, there are some amazing points hotels just overall that you can book. I spent some time at the Park Hyatt in Zanzibar, which I think is just – I mean, anyone who has the opportunity to go to Zanzibar period, incredible opportunity, such an amazing value to be able to book hotel, stay there. There's so many as well. That was just one that came to the top of my mind. 

Now, just for fun, I kind of wanted to get your sense. How would you rank on a scale of one to 10? When you think about the value that this ANA Around the World ticket offers in terms of how much potential cash value you can get from your points, how would you rank an ANA Around the World to get on a scale of one to 10? 

Devan: 100. Is that correct, Matt? So a 10, it's so incredible. I know I did realize, and I started this with like how much you would spend on an ANA Around the World ticket, and then how many points you would save. But if we're also looking at the monetary cost of these flights, I mean, easily every Around the World, and I'm going to go at like the bare minimum here. 

I've had some that I booked that are far more than this, but for one person, the cheapest Around the World ticket I have ever booked is $13,000 per person. If you're flying with two people, that's $26,000 worth of value. You can subtract the taxes and fees if you want. Maybe it's $25,000 worth of value, but the value of this is just absolutely incredible. Again, you don't have to kill yourself on this trip. You don't have to go to eight countries. You can go to two. You can do this multiple times, and it's just an incredible value, both points wise and money wise. 

Devon: Okay. So separate question. Also scale of one to 10. How would you rank? I kind of want to split this up into two pieces. How would you rank the challenge of actually finding award availability? Again, I know you have a ton of experience, but I want you to take just the average kind of intermediate points user. Someone who understands how to run award searches, understands how to look for Star Alliance flights. Scale of one to 10. How challenging is it to construct one of these itineraries? 

Devan: For the average person, I would say eight or nine. It's difficult. 

Devon: Yeah. I think that that's really great to mention because this is not going to be kind of your garden variety. You're looking for one, one-way ticket between the US and Tokyo, which can be challenging enough, right? Like you're trying to construct multiple different award segments together. So it's good for people to have their eyes opened and to know kind of what they're stepping into. So that's the actual constructing the itinerary. 

The last scale question, scale of one to 10, given the enormous number of hours that you've spent on the phone with ANA, how challenging is it – Once you've done the work of actually figuring out the itinerary, how challenging is it to actually get one of these awards ticketed?  

Devan: Oh, like one. Very easy. As I said, like the ANA reps are phenomenal, like absolutely phenomenal. So yeah, once you understand it and once you actually found the correct routing, I think usually it's human error. Well, ANA is a human, but you know what I mean. It's like our error, not ANA's error. Yeah. Once you have them all, it's very simple to get this ticketed. 

Devon: All right. Before we wrap up today, I just want to really highlight and acknowledge you and Kelsi for not only your expertise in this really incredible award redemption opportunity, but I also do want to give you a chance so that people can understand wow, this sounds amazing. I know a lot of people who are sitting on tons and tons of Amex points where that's not going to be the limiting factor in their booking one of these. 

But for a lot of people, time is a limiting factor where even if they understand how one of these awards can theoretically be constructed, you've mentioned in order to construct one of these awards, this is not a beginner level kind of endeavor. Even for someone who is very skilled, maybe they don't want or don't have 10 to 15 hours to do award searches or three hours to call ANA, even just to get it ticketed once. 

So for people who would love to take this trip would love to use their Amex points to book this and are happy to hire expert help. Can you talk a little bit about the service that you and Kelsi provide so that people can entirely bypass that eight or nine out of 10 level difficulty of trying to put one of these things together themselves, if that doesn't sound like fun to them. Because some of us would find it fun and a lot of people wouldn't. 

Devan: Yeah, sure. So Kelsi and I do have an award booking service. We do it for both just regular around trips one ways, but we also do it for the Around the World ticket or RTW. If you ever look at our website, that's what it's called. But Around the World, we do charge $500 per person. That is for any class of service that you want. We will search for the tickets. There's no like maximum other than like ANA's maximum. We will search for whatever routing you want. 

That said, we always jump on a 30 minute call before starting an ANA Around the World booking to make sure that you truly are understanding what we can do and what we can't do. We can't make flights appear out of thin air. We don't fly the planes. 

So it's very much like making sure that we are on the same page of what we think is possible, what we don't think is possible, giving you some ideas of different ways of thinking about the ANA Around the World. Usually you have to think a little bit more outside of the box rather than like, I want to go from LAX to Sydney. Maybe there's a flight open from LAX to Melbourne, and we get you there and you get yourself to Sydney. 

So we, we talk around about those things in it, but basically we do all the leg work. We search for all the tickets. Once it's time to book, we are the ones who just like stay on hold with ANA. That's why they're saved in my phone. It's just easier to look up ANA on my phone. 

Then you will be on the phone. We will bring you into the phone call once we are through with an agent, and you will literally say your name. You will answer whatever questions they have. Usually they're going to ask you like, what's your address. They're just verifying you are who you say you are. Then you basically stay quiet, and I will take over or Kelsi will take over the call. We are literally going to spit out and sound like robots to the ANA agent and book this trip. 

That's basically it. You do pay for it. So you pay the taxes and the fees. So you'll have to put in your credit card information, but it's very simple when you take it over and really all you need to say is yes to the flights we find and then yes and answer any of the ANA's reps question that they have for you. But that is how our service works. Again, it's $500 per person. 

Devon: Honestly, I think for so many people, that is such a great value. If you're thinking about the amount of time that you would save yourself searching for flights and also potentially being on the phone that entire time yourself and booking it. So, I just think there's no excuses. People can absolutely book these awards all by themselves. They also have amazing resources like you and Kelsi if they want to take this type of trip and they don't want to do every single piece of it by themselves.

So whichever camp you fall in, I hope that today's episode has given you all something really interesting and fun to think about, whether it's a graduation trip for someone that you love in your life, celebrating being empty nesters, some sort of milestone award, or just becoming the type of person who takes an Around the World trip once a year because you have the points to do it. I think this is such a fun little opportunity within the award travel world. 

I'm honestly shocked that ANA has not changed the award prices on these tickets. Knock on wood. I really hope they don't think about it. I don't think there's a lot of people booking these awards because they are challenging to construct. You do need to take time off in order to take them.

But for those of you who have never heard of this before or have heard of it and didn't entirely understand how it worked, thank you, Devan, for explaining everything to us today. I always enjoy talking to you for anybody who's interested in getting in touch with you. I also just want to say you, Devan, your sister, Kelsi, you're just fantastic people. You're so interesting to talk to. You have so much incredible information to share. 

So in addition to having the incredible opportunity to take an ANA Around the World trip, I honestly wouldn't even just mind hiring you guys so that I could have more excuses to talk to you. So for anybody who's wondering what would it be like to work with you? I, in all transparency, I've not hired you to book one of these tickets for me. 

But if I ever wanted to take one of these trips, perhaps when I don't have such little kids at home, I would get your guys' help in a heartbeat because I don't really think anybody understands these bookings any better than you two do. So thank you so much for your expertise. Thanks for the conversation today. Thank you for taking the time to be here. I really appreciate you.

Devan: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, Devon. This has been wonderful. If any of your listeners has any questions, we're always open to answering them. 

Devon: All right. Amazing. We will put all of your contact information in the episode description and the show notes so people know exactly where to find you. So as always everybody have a fantastic week, and we will see you back here again. Same time, same place next week. 

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Point Me to First Class. If you want more tips on turning your expenses into travel, visit pointmetofirstclass.com to learn more. See you next week.