58. From Zero Points to South Africa in Business in Just 12 Months with Dr. Lisha Taylor

Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel the world. I'm your host, Devon Gimbel, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest untapped asset if you know how to leverage them. Ready to dive into the world of credit card points and miles so you can travel more, travel better, and travel often? Let's get started.

Welcome back to the podcast everybody. Today I'm joined by guest Dr. Lisha Taylor. Dr. Taylor is a wealth strategist, doctorpreneur, a professional writer, and podcaster who promotes physician wellness through financial literacy.

She works as a Board Certified primary care sports physician in Atlanta, Georgia and is now the co-founder of Wealth Minded MD, a growing company and podcast that empowers women in medicine to build wealth and create the lives they desire. She uses her background and private equity and passion for physicians to help doctors increase their financial confidence and build a life of wealth and wellness.

Now, despite her being an expert in personal finance, Lisha only recently tapped into the power of turning her expenses into wish list travel experiences using credit card points. We're going to talk about that, how far she's come in less than a year of diving into a war travel, and how she used points for a recent family trip to South Africa. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Let's dive in.

Devon: Dr. Lisha Taylor, welcome to the podcast. I am so thrilled to have you here today.

Dr. Taylor: Thank you so much for having me. You know what, Devon? This is actually exciting for me. Because we've spoken before, you've added so much value to my life, and I'm sure added a ton of value to everyone who is listening. So it's actually an honor and a privilege for me to be here. Let me state that very clearly right now.

Devon: Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you so much. I have learned so much from you. That's one of the reasons why I was so excited to have you on the podcast today. I think you and I share some areas of personal interest that I think have so much relevance to the conversation around points travel. So I just could not wait to have you come on. We can just dive into all the things. But before we do that, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, where you're located? What do you need people to know about you?

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, so I am a primary care sports medicine physician. So that's sort of like my day job, if you will. I love it. I don't know if I would have gone to medical school if primary care sports medicine wasn't an option. I grew up in this sports family. I absolutely love athletics. I think working with active people, whether they are professional athletes or just active adults in the community, I think it's so fun. So that's my day job, which I love.

But I also have this passion, and that is helping physicians with personal finance. I strongly believe that one of the keys to wellness is financial literacy. Because when you have more money, you have more control over your time. When you have more control over your time, you can do the things you want to do when you want to do them, how you want to do them. So that's sort of my passion is how can I help physicians get to that place?

So yeah, I'm a doctor sort of by day, and I help other doctors sort of by night with this other thing. I also have a podcast. I'm also teaching other doctors and doing other stuff. But those are the main two things. It's personal finance and then there's like sports medicine.

Devon: I love it so much. I think this is one of the areas where you and I can really just nerd out, honestly, forever and ever is just this deep, deep love of personal finance. I think it's always very interesting to hear how people come to this interest. Because I think so many of us have really, really different backgrounds around money, really different backgrounds around the things that we were taught or just that we experienced around money and finance growing up.

I think especially as a group, physicians in general are kind of traditionally known to be, quote unquote, terrible with money. I think there's a lot of different reasons for that. But I'm really curious to hear from you just where did this interest in personal finance come from for you? Kind of what did money and financial education look like for you even as a child?

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, so I grew up in this family where everyone in my family either worked in business or worked in finance. So I have like four aunts who are auditors and accountants. My dad works for the Department of Defense, and he also does some auditing. Fun fact, I have a large family. My dad has seven siblings, my mom has 13. So there's like a gazillion people. Most of those people do business and finance. So that was sort of my introduction. I grew up with my role models sort of doing that.

As an athlete myself, when I got injured, I got introduced to the world of sports medicine, but I still also had this interest in business and finance based on the people in my family. So when I was going to college, I was really deciding am I going to go to medical school and become a physician? Or am I going to do something in business and finance?

I went to Duke University, and I literally had the best advisor ever who told me, “Hey, Lisha, if you end up going to medical school, that's fine. Take all the pre-med courses in case you go down that route. But this may be one of the only times in your life where you get to study something outside of medicine.”

So she encouraged me to actually major not in the science, but in something else. At Duke, they didn't have a pre-business major, but they did have something called public policy. That is sort of like this blend between economics, psychology, and political science. So I'm saying that's to say in my undergraduate years, I actually took econ courses. Because I was in those courses, I actually started getting invited to a lot of the internship program sessions and things like that from a lot of the members on Wall Street.

So when I was in college, I was taking pre-med courses. But I was also in these Wall Street informational sessions and had advisors on some of the largest banks in New York. I actually was flying back and forth because I was really with considering it at that time. I ended up interviewing for jobs in private equity. I actually worked in finance for a year. I ended up working also in institutional finance. I was on Capitol Hill for a little bit. So my sort of love for personal finance stemmed from how I grew up, but also kind of was fed during my years in college and early years as an adult.

At some point, I was like well this is great, but I don't want my primary focus in life to be how I can make some large bank even more money. So I want to actually help people and feel good about the work that I'm doing. Not that you can't do that working on Wall Street. That wasn't my role at the time. So I was okay, I'm going to go to medical school. I was very fortunate to get in, took the MCAT, all that stuff, and went to medical school.

I really thought oh, man, you know what? This is great. But I feel like I have to basically give up my love for finance in order to pursue my career as a physician. It wasn't until I was in medical school taking out tons of student loan debt and fielding tons of questions from my classmates about their debt and like what they were going to do and then they were asking me questions about how do I invest? How do I do this stuff?

I realized oh, man. Now I might be able to merge both of these worlds. What if I'm a physician who can also help other physicians with this knowledge? Institutional finance and personal finance are very different. So there were some things that I did need to learn. I'm one of those money nerds to read tons of books. So that was very helpful. But that's sort of how I came to be.

It was like okay, I have this background in personal finance and this background in finance. Then there are these physicians that I absolutely love, my friends and friends of friends, that I truly want to help. So it started there. I started a blog when I was a medical student. That blog grew. I got invited to become one of the exclusive content writers for Doximity before they went public. So I was writing a lot of personal finance articles for them.

I got then invited to write articles for other large blogs like The White Coat Investor and like KevinMD and was publishing blogs and articles here and there. Then ended up getting invited to help other startup companies and physician focused companies that had a very similar mission of increasing financial literacy for doctors. So it kind of grew from there.

I know I'm monologuing at this point, Devon. I appreciate your patience, okay. It was like oh, my God, I'm having diarrhea at the mouth. But yeah, this is how things started. It's evolved from there. I will say it has been one of the most rewarding things. Now that I've met you, Devon, I also throw in like credit card stuff. Everyone's super excited.

I was talking to one of my colleagues today before recording with you. I was like we've got to get you a new credit card. We have to do something different. You can't be paying cash for these flights. You're paying too much. I'm going to show you how to do it. She was like, “Okay, okay.” I was like don't worry, girl, I got you. I got you. So Devon, you have taught me well. So a part of this is like my own love and interest that I've had for a long time. Then the other part is meeting amazing people like you who have taught me even more things that I can use to help other doctors.

Devon: Yeah, I love this so much. This is part of like one of my favorite reasons to have conversations with folks, not just about credit cards but around this bigger picture of finance and money is because I feel like I learn so much every time I have one of these conversations. I think there is so much still, honestly, stigma around talking around money, particularly for women or for folks who have not traditionally been included in sort of the broader financial services industry in terms of inclusion.

So I think it's just so helpful to hear about what were you told about money? Or how were you raised about money? Or what did you overcome learning about money? Because I think that these stories are really what helped us find our own way through these situations, even if we're in our 20s, 30s, 40s, however old we are.

One of the things that I think is so fascinating when I think about what it sounds like you grew up with in terms of your exposure to money is that you, very fortunately it sounds like, landed in this extended family that was incredibly involved and knowledgeable about finances. I think that that's something that is really, really unique. I think so many of us probably had an experience very different from that.

Like I think about the way that I was raised with money and what I was exposed to about money. I don't feel like I had anybody around me who knew anything about money. I don't even think I realized how little I knew about money until I actually had already finished all of my training.

So from someone who actually had a very different experience and had exposure to such educated people around a lot of these issues, I'm really curious. Do you remember, if anything, what were you taught about, like credit cards growing up? Or what was your experience with credit cards as a teen, as a young adult moving into medical school?

Dr. Taylor: Yeah. So I remember vividly being at eight or nine years old, and my dad deciding that he was going to give us an allowance. My dad really had this frugal mindset. He felt like if he just bought us the things that we asked for that we would become financially dependent on him. We wouldn't truly understand the value of a dollar. So he wanted to teach us these principles of like saving and investing. So he decided he was going to give us an allowance.

He decided okay, you're going to give 10% because we're Christian. He thought that tithing was very important. So you're going to give 10%. You're going to save 10%. Then you can spend the rest. So that was sort of his philosophy, and I grew up with that mindset. I still give 10% to this day. I still save a certain amount to this day. So I think that was really ingrained in my head.

I remember being around 17 or 18, and going down to our local Bank of America and getting some like bank account that he was an authorized user on. So I remember that. I remember being in college and doing a work study, but I think he also deposited maybe 50 bucks a week at that time, which now seems like nothing so I wouldn't like starve, I guess, if the meal options were closed or something like that. So I remember that.

But I also remember, I think maybe I was like 19 or 20 years old and getting my first credit card. I got like a credit card from a credit union. It wasn't any sort of rewards card. It had a very low limit, maybe like $2,000. My dad was this is your emergency fund. If you need to use it, you can use it. Tell me about it. Don't go crazy. I remember having enough respect for my father to not go crazy because he had taught me very early on that like Lisha do not test me in that way. So I was like okay, cool.

I say that to say that the limit was low. I did not want to go against the strict instructions from my father. So I remember getting my own credit card from a different credit union a few years later. I think it was Navy Federal. Because my dad works for the Department of Defense. So that meant I was eligible to get a credit card from there. That credit card had a huge limit, Devon. It had like $10,000. As a like 19 or 20 year old, I was like I'm rich. This is it. I've made it in life.

Now granted, it's a credit card. It is literally not money. Clearly was not financially illiterate at that time. But I was like I'm rich, I'm rich, I'm rich. So at that, I don't remember spending a lot in undergrad. But I remember when I graduated, I moved to Washington DC. I was, my first sort of internship when I was there, was not getting paid very much. I wasn't getting paid enough to cover all of my bills. DC at the time was really expensive.

So I remember actually first using credit cards to sort of supplement my income and like pay for groceries and things like that, which I guess it's not the worst use. But I should have tried to get a second job and like done other things and not tried to supplement things with credit cards. Then I remember applying to medical school and using the credit card to pay for the application fees.

So I'm saying this to say that even though my dad had sort of taught me okay, you work for money, and you save money, and you give money away, and he did it some points they don't charge a lot on the credit card. But maybe I missed that little important tidbit.

So I ended up charging quite a bit of money to the point where by the time I started medical school, I probably had about eight or so thousand dollars of credit card debt, which seemed insurmountable to me at that point. As I was looking back, I was did I like go on some huge international trip? No. Did I buy like some fancy Chanel bag? No. I just sort of use this card to supplement my income during this period when I first lived in DC, and I was just sort of making the minimum payments, and it was like I was not making a dent in it.

Then I started freaking out. Because I was okay, I'm making enough money to live comfortably in DC. I do know a bit about finance. I know enough to know credit card debt is not good. Like I need to be paying this down. So I actually graduated from medical school, first started as a resident. I was like I'm going to pay all of this debt off in the first year. Made a decision to live with a roommate, saved the money, and threw tons of money each month of the credit cards to pay off that debt.

When I became credit card debt free, I was like I'm never doing this again. I'm not going to use credit cards anymore. I'm not going to get myself in debt anymore. So my feeling at that time was credit cards are bad. I don't want to do that anymore. So I don't want to use them anymore.

For a substantial period of my adult life, I did not use credit cards. I paid for everything with a debit card and that was it. Largely until maybe like a couple of years ago when I finally started using a credit card again, but it was a long time. So that's sort of my long winded way of saying that I charged a lot of money on a credit card. It took a lot of effort to pay it off, and then I vowed to not use them again for a long time.

Devon: Yeah again, I think there's so many things that so many people are going to be able to relate to in this story. It may not be, of course, the exact same experience. I didn't have the experience of getting a credit card and then using it to help me live, like you did. But I had a very similar sort of story about credit cards and them being really bad.

I was raised by a single mother, and we were not very financially resourced. I remember so distinctly this one conversation. She'd never talked to me about money, but it was always very obvious to me growing up that we did not have access to money. It was just very clear in so many circumstances that things were not available to us because of money.

I have this very distinct memory of I was about 15. She was driving me to school still because I was 15 as a junior in high school. So the only person who didn't have a driver's license and whose mother still dropped them off at school. I remember her driving me to school.

It was a very short conversation where she told me that essentially when she was raising me and my older sister, especially when we were very, very young, and she had initially become a single mother that it was so financially challenging, and that she essentially leaned on credit cards for very similar to you. To basically make ends meet. To make sure that we had groceries, and we had things available to us.

That after a number of years, she had found herself in pretty significant credit card debt, and that she had worked tirelessly to dig out of that. I just remember her saying to me don't ever get credit cards. They are very, very dangerous. Just don't ever have them.

My mom almost never talked to me about money. So this was a significant conversation or me. This was not like an every week kind of conversation in our house. It was sort of a similar thing where she had made me an authorized user on her one single credit card. But her instructions were literally this is for, like you said, this is for emergencies only. If you will die unless you pay for something, then you can use this credit card. But under no circumstances, will you ever put anything else on this. I was so terrified of that card. I never put a single thing on it.

I mean, luckily, I was never in an emergency situation. But I remember being afraid of that credit card, having it in my wallet, and opening it up and only having like two $1 bills but actually feeling like I cannot even touch this credit card because it is so dangerous. I went through most of my young adult life not ever having my own credit card.

I've told the story on the podcast before where the very first personal credit card I ever had I got when I was a fellow. I was, at that time, 30 years old, and I'd never had my own personal credit card because of just this ingrained fear of them.

So I think it's just really, really interesting to look at what are our experiences around money, around credit cards. What were we taught either explicitly, like I was, or what did we learn through experience, like you did? You mentioned that for a while, you also held this belief that credit cards are bad, and that you did not use them for a period of time. But I'm really curious to hear what happened such that you then decided that okay well, maybe I am ready, or maybe it isn't a terrible idea for me to carry a credit card now. Like what made you go back into the world of credit cards?

Dr. Taylor: Yes. So there were two things. One, I started needing to pay for things. I was like okay, I'm going to use this credit card and pay it off really quickly. I got really good at doing that. I certainly do it very often. It was like larger purchases sort of thing. That was because one of my friends in residency has said that credit card had better protection.

So I was okay if I'm going to make a large purchase, I'm going to use this card because it will, quote unquote, protect me if something happened, but I'm going to pay it off immediately. Like I would charge something and the thing would be pending. It wouldn't even be posted yet. I would be like sending in the money. Like I don't even want to see the balance there. So that's sort of how I was for a long time.

It's really interesting. I think it was early 2023 I think maybe or late 2022, I was at a ski cabin with my cousin. We were skiing. I was working there doing some sports medicine stuff, and I invited her up. She's visiting me, and we're obviously having a blast. I'm giving her free lift tickets. So she's loving life, and she's in this great mood. I remember telling her, I was like oh man, I need to buy Beyonce tickets. I promise you, Devon, I have a point.

So. So I'm telling her, I'm like hey, I'm going to go see Beyonce in concert. She's touring. Taylor Swift is touring. I want to go see one of these two people. Taylor's tickets are like a gazillion dollars. So that seems like it's out. So I'm going to go see Beyonce. I'm going to spend this money.

She was like okay well, how much are the tickets? I was well, I don't know. But I'm a doctor now. I don't want to sit in the nosebleeds. I want to have good seats. So I'm going to spend probably like 500 or 600 bucks. I kept telling her this. She's like okay, I hope you're putting that money on a rewards card.

I go, rewards? What's that? My little antenna goes up, and I'm like whoa, what are you're talking about? She's like well, I have one of these cards where when I buy things, it gives me miles. Then I can use those miles for flight. She was like I didn't even pay for my flight to see you. I got it for free. I was like oh, you did now. Oh, we're getting free flights? Oh. I'm sorry, can you give me the step by step? Tell me which card you got, how much it cost? So she's like oh, you want me to help you out? I'll give you my referral. I'm like please at this point.

So she gives me a referral to like a Delta Amex Platinum card, right? Which Devon's laughing because we all know in the points world that's probably not the best card to start with. But I love my cousin. She introduced me to this world. I was like you know what? It's fine. So I'm like okay, give me this Delta card. She's like yeah, you can use this for miles. Then when you accumulate so many points or whatever then you can redeem them for flights.

I was okay. Then it came with a signup bonus, which I was paying attention to. I was like oh, I can get even more free points or miles or whatever if I spend X amount of dollars, and so I'm going to do that. I remember getting the signup bonus. Then from that point on, it just basically put a lot of spend on this delta card, and I would pay it off really quickly. I would accumulate all of these SkyMiles.

I hadn't redeemed any of them, but I loved good to logging into the account and seeing the SkyMiles balance increase. I was like I'm in business. I'm in business. One of these days, I'm going to redeem all of these miles for a good flight. Like that was my goal. I had one goal. It was get a free flight because my cousin told me she got free flights. I was I want to do the same thing.

So that was my whole goal. The first year I had this card, Devon, I must have put an insane amount of spend on that card. Like now I look back, and I'm getting hives as I'm thinking about all of the stubs and all the things that I've missed out on. I'm like oh, my God. Then of all the airlines, it's like Sky pesos basically that I was accumulating. So that was just not ideal, but it's fine.

I got the card. The one thing that card, I will say, did help me accumulate was I put so much spend on the card that I started to accumulate status on the airline. So that, I found, has actually been very valuable. So I became like a gold medallion member on Delta.

So eventually, it really did start to work in my favor, where I was getting upgraded from main cabin to Comfort Plus. I was like oh, this comes with free wine? Okay, this is great. I'm going to buy my main cabin Delta flight. I'm going to get upgraded to Comfort Plus. I'm going to have my wine with my extra legroom. No one's going to take my cabin space on the overhead. There's going to be room for my little rolly bag. I'm in heaven. I'm in heaven. It's not until I meet you, Devon, that you're like Lisha, you think you're in heaven. I don't know how to break this to you, but you're really not.

Devon: I remember. I remember. So clearly trying to figure out the most diplomatic way to say hey, you've started, which is such a huge step, truly. For anyone to really take that first step into getting a rewards card, I think is so, so great. Like you said, because you've been concentrating all your spend on this card, you were driving up your points balance. I think all of those things are beautiful, right?

But I do remember thinking what is the most diplomatic way to say you're doing amazing, and there are so many other options out there. Let's just have a conversation and decide on purpose that Delta card is the only one you want. Which is if that's what we decide with informed consent and all the information in our hands, I'm all for that. Right? I would never tell someone no, you're not allowed to do a thing that you want to do.

But I do remember our conversation and thinking oh, wow, I wonder if she knew there were other options, like would this still be the path she was taking? So I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just wanted to interject very fond memories of that conversation. So you pick it back up from there and tell me kind of what happened next for you in your experience?

Dr. Taylor: Well, yes. So you basically told me that there were way better ways to do this whole thing. I remember having lots of questions for you in the beginning. I vividly remember you introducing this concept of hey, you could potentially use other cards and accumulate points that could go further. I remember one, being fascinated by the idea because I had no idea it existed, right?

Honestly, a little bit embarrassed at the time because I'm so good and known in the personal finance world and like my inner circle or whatever. I've helped so many people learn how to invest in build wealth and eliminate debt and do all of these other things that I was like oh, my gosh. How is there this huge chunk of personal finance, which is like optimizing your expenses that I've totally not learned, not understood until this point. So I was a little bit embarrassed, but I wanted to learn more than I was embarrassed, if that makes sense.

So I was intrigued to keep asking you questions. At first when I heard you talk, I thought man, this seems a little complicated, but it seems also like it might be worth it. I remember feeling relieved when you said you know what, Lisha? It's not an all or nothing. You can kind of jump in however you see fit. You don't have to have 30 credit cards and get a new credit card each month. You can just start slow, start with a couple of cards.

I think, I mean now I'm sort of that person that has a gazillion cards. But it was just so reassuring. First of all, you're very reassuring. So that is like a part of it is just you as a person are just amazing. But also, it was reassuring to hear that I didn't have to learn it all overnight, and that I could still get value as I was learning as I went. So that kind of gave me the motivation.

I also had a question about is it worth it? Because it was so ironic. So before I met you, I had actually signed up for another card aside from the Delta card. So I'm a personal finance nerd. I read books about money in my spare time. I realized that sounds odd, but that is kind of what I do. Because I'm always teaching people and so I'm maybe there's a new concept out here. So I'm reading books all of the time.

I remember reading this book. I think it was I'll Teach You to Be Rich, Ramit’s. Yeah. So he had this Netflix special, and I had not read his book, and I'd heard about his book. So I was oh let me check out his book. So I read his book. I remember, in the book, he was talking about optimizing credit card points. He mentioned that you could get really complicated, or you could just go for cashback. At that point, I was like okay, maybe I should have another card aside from my delta card that gives me cash-back because I'm a money nerd. I like getting money. So that seems cool.

So before I met you, I’d actually gone to Navy Federal, my bank, and said okay, I want a good cash-back card. Give me a cash-back card that's going to give me the most cash-back. I remember thinking that it might be sort of complicated. So I remember switching my existing card that I've had for 13 years to like this standard cash-back card. I think I had 2% on everything. Then I ended up getting like another card. So I ended up putting in one new credit card application to get this card that had bonuses for like travel and gas and things like that. So, a couple of months, a few more months before I met you, I'd actually gotten. That's what my plan was. It was I'm going to get cash-back.

I'm saying this to say when I met you, I had questions because I was like okay, if the standard credit card says that you get basically like one cent per point, is this really worth it? Like would I need to accumulate a million points to even have enough money to redeem them for one flight? So for me, it was I'm intrigued by Devon. She's obviously smart. She seems super savvy. I don't believe she would lie to me. It seems like she's getting a lot of value from this. But just the math isn't mathing for me.

So that was sort of my sort of question for you. Then you answered it. You were basically well, Lisha, I'm not getting one cent per point. I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm getting more like 10 cents because I'm me. Maybe at some point in your life, you could probably get three or four. I mean, it's not what you said. But basically, that's what I was hearing for myself is okay if Devon the Guru can get like 15 cents per point and fly her whole family to like across the world and back, then maybe at some point in my life I could maybe redeem a couple more.

So we had our conversation. I remember texting you afterwards and saying okay Devon, what card should I get? You asked me a lot of questions that I think are really valuable for people getting started, which was what do you spend money on? What are you hoping to do with the points?

I don't know what I said, but probably some variation of I want to be like you. Whatever you're doing with the point, Devon, that's what I want to be doing. Seems like you're traveling in first class. I've not traveled in first class. That seems nice. Seems like you and your family are like staying in like these amazing hotels. That sounds nice. Devon, I also want that too. Like all the other things that you're probably doing that you haven't told me about, I want that too. So I want it all. So just tell me it all.

You were like okay Lisha, you should maybe start, I think you said one of the Chase Sapphires. At the time I was like trying to minimize fees, and we were trying to figure out if I should go for the Chase Sapphire Reserve or the Chase Sapphire Preferred, and we ended up going with the Chase Sapphire Preferred, which I do feel is a good fit for me and was a really good first card. I wasn't, getting a card with a $500 annual fee, even though you do get the travel credit, was just daunting for me as I was starting. I just felt like oh my gosh, that seems too much.

I also buy services like Blue Apron. So the Chase Sapphire Preferred had the online groceries multiplier. So there were just other reasons along that line. My friends had the Chase Sapphire Preferred. So I just felt more comfortable with that one. I remember getting that card. I think you or somebody had said you may get a higher offer in the branch. Somebody mentioned it. I was like well, let me at least check this out and see. She hasn't lied to me yet. Let me just see what's going on.

So I ended up going to the Chase, which is like 30 seconds down the street from where I live, how ironic. I was like I want to get a credit card. I feel like I was 18 years old. They were okay. What card? So I'm like Devon said I should get this card. So they're trying to tell me that all their cards, and I'm like this one. This is the one. Devon said this is the one that I need.

So I said do you have any bonuses or whatever? They did offer me a higher signup bonus from going in the branch. I think the initial offer was you spend 4,000, you get 60,000 points. If you spend an additional 2,000, you get another 10,000 points or something along those lines. So it ended up being a signup bonus of around 70,000 points. I thought I'm going to start with this. I'm going to see how it goes.

So I started using that card. Apparently, Devon, I spend a lot of money because I, which is very daunting for me. I was like how have I already hit the sign up bonus within, let's just say less than 30 days? I'm okay. So on the one side, I'm very happy that I'm meeting signup bonuses. On the other side, maybe I need to examine my spending habits. But I ended up getting that card.

Then I remember you saying, Lisha, if you're going to get another card after this one, get the Amex Gold. So I was okay. So I knew, you had given me like step one, step two. I was like I'm really good at following directions. So I ended up getting the Amex Personal Gold card next. Again, hit that signup bonus much sooner than I thought I was going to hit it.

So I was excited that I was earning points, but I was also again, like what's happening here? Why are we spending so much money slash are we making enough money to spend this money? Because I remember my fear of credit cards, and I'm like we're doing all right, Lisha. You're doing all right. You're doing all right.

By that point, I had joined your amazing Facebook group. I did not know what sub meant. I remember posting are you almost sure that transferrable points are worth it? Like I remember my first initial post. Your like commenters were so nice, so lovely. Because I'm sure they get asked this like a gazillion times a day, and somehow they still are motivated to answer.

So someone very nicely was like it's worth it. You can redeem them for a lot of value. So it just kind of went on from there. So, yeah, started with the Chase Sapphire Preferred, like you suggested. I started with Amex Personal Gold, like you suggested. By that point, I just soaked up enough information where I felt I don't need the handcuffs anymore. I mean, I'm sure, I am positive there are a lot of things that I could still learn. But I think by that time, I learned enough from the amazing ladies in your group, from you, from your podcast that I was okay. I'm doing this thing now. It just kind of took off from there.

Devon: So just to give a little bit of context, can you help me understand sort of what is this timeline that we're talking about? When did you really kind of start dipping your toe into this more expanded world of credit cards, rewards credit cards with your Chase Sapphire Preferred? How much time has passed since then? What's the landscape now for you? You said you have more than two rewards cards now. But give me a little bit of a before and after picture, if you can.

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, so you and I met, what was it September, I want to say, maybe of 2023. As we're recording this, it's towards the end of March. So six and a half months or so. So anybody listening, if you're like I'm where you are, Lisha. I don't understand. I'm like a beginner. Six and a half months’ time, I mean, I'm a smart person. But obviously, a lot of people are smart too. So if I could pick it up, other people can pick it up. But yet, this is about six, six and a half months or so.

Devon: What does your credit card portfolio look like now? Do you have a general sense of just how many points do you think you've earned over the six month period? Then we're going to talk about the really fun thing, which is what you've started to do with these points.

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, let's say I started with Chase Sapphire Preferred, then I did Amex Personal Gold. Then somebody said you’ve got to get the Inks. So I got the Chase Ink Business Unlimited. I started with that one because I didn't want to have to pick and choose which cards to use for which things. So I thought that would be the easiest.

I had actually plan to get another Ink card. But I apparently was at 5/24, and I didn't realize it because I gotten this new cashback card before I met you. I had gotten the Chase Sapphire Preferred. I'd gotten the Amex Personal Gold. I'd gotten that random Delta card that I didn't know about. Not that I didn't know about, but sky pesos. It wasn't probably the best card.

Then I think I had opened like some business line of credit from like this other sort of entity that I thought was just for my business, but I think it showed up on my personal credit report. So I realized I was at 5/24, which I was freaking out about. Because at that point I knew that's not good. You can't get any more Chase cards. I'm kind of stuck.

So I called Chase, and they were like well, you're going to be under 5/24 in two months or something like that, and so you'll be fine. So I was okay. Instead of getting another Chase Ink, I'm going to get the Amex Business Gold. It was around December. I knew I was going to put a lot of spend on the card. I felt pretty confident I could get the signup bonus. So I ended up doing those.

So I had to Amex, Amex Business Gold and the Amex Personal Gold. Then I had to Chase cards, the Chase Sapphire Preferred, and the Chase Ink Business Unlimited. Earlier this month, I actually did apply for two more cards. I am like a lot of people in your Facebook group who got the Amex Business Platinum and that whole craze.

Then I also, I'm under 5/24 now. So I ended up getting another Ink card. So the first six months, I started with four cards, two Amex, two Chase. Recently, I've just gotten another Chase and another Amex. So on those first four cards that I've earned the signup bonus and all of that and all of this spend, I've probably accumulated about a quarter of a million points. So 750,000. Then when I hit the signup bonus for the Chase Ink Business Preferred that I just got in the Amex Business Platinum, that will add, what, another 350,000 points, which is crazy. Because that means a million points in less than a year.

I'm not like married. I don't have children, right? So for a lot of people listening to this who are like I don't have kids. I don't have a big spend. I'm a primary care sports medicine physician. So it's not like I'm a plastic surgeon making a million dollars and spending a kazillion dollars. Apparently, I guess I do spend a lot because I'm hitting the signup bonuses pretty well. But I wanted to give people listening to this hope.

It's not like I have some player to that we're referring back and forth. It's not like I have kids and like daycare spends and tuition spends to like meet the subs. Apparently I just spend a lot of money. So yeah, about 750 points thus far. Another 350, probably in another month and a half.

Devon: Oh, that's so incredible. Honestly, in less than a year's time. I think that one of the things that I always am trying to help people understand is that most folks, at least in the beginning, they do kind of two main things. They underestimate the amount of points that they can earn, again, for their own spend, right. I'm not talking about let's just find things we don't need to spend money on or increase our spending needlessly. But just the money you're already spending anyway, there's a lot of opportunity to there.

Then the other thing is, and you kind of alluded to this earlier in the call, is that people also tend to overestimate the number of points they're going to need for some sort of travel that's meaningful to them, whatever that is. I think it's so common for people to have that experience of thinking well, it's going to take a million points for me to book myself on just like one regular domestic flight.

Again, we all live pretty busy lives. None of us are really looking to take on a hobby that maybe at the end of the year two is going to net us like one domestic flight somewhere. But I know because I follow you and your adventures on Instagram and travel vicariously through you very, very jealously that you did a lot more recently with your points than a single sort of domestic flight. No shade on domestic flights whatsoever. But I am really interested to hear all about this really incredible trip that you took with your family, what it was like, and how points factored into that for you.

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, so Devon is talking about my recent trip to South Africa. So I must say this. So I grew up in this finance focused family. My father is a very frugal man. Recently, I have been trying to get him to one, stop working because he doesn't need to work anymore. Like dad enjoy your life sort of thing. Two start thinking about, this is going to sound selfish, start thinking about the ways he's going to give us an inheritance. So I'm like Daddy, what's happening?

So I was telling him, I'd read this book Die With Zero, which I think is a fantastic book that has a lot of really cool points. One of them is to rethink the way that you may initially think about the way you give an inheritance to children. A lot of people sort of accumulate wealth, whatever they don't spend goes to their kids. Okay, there's nothing wrong with that. But maybe there's a better way to go about this. This is me putting on my personal finance hat.

But we started thinking about, can we be intentional about the money that we want to leave people? If you're going to be intentional about it, if you're going to give money away, let’s see if we can optimize the ways and the times in which you give people money. What you'll learn is there are ideal times to give people money, right?

You want to give people money when they are young enough to enjoy it, but mature enough to handle it. They have the health to be able to do the things that they want with it, right. So there's these things about like your age, how that factors into when you give people money, their health that factors into sort of how you enjoy money, and the time that you have. A Lot of people sort of work during their working years and then try to travel in retirement.

But in this book Die With Zero, it talks about how there are certain travel experiences that are best had when you're younger, right? You can say okay I'm going to wait till I retire to climb the Great Wall of China, but then you may have arthritis in your knees, and it's not as enjoyable. So maybe you would have enjoyed that experience better had you done it sooner.

So in that book, it really talks about like how the most optimal times to give people money is in their late 20s and early 30s because that's when they are mature enough to be able to handle the money. That's also when they have the best need or the biggest need for money, right? Most people are buying a home, getting married, starting their kids' college savings funds, or whatever it is. So if you're going to give someone money, they probably would appreciate getting the money sooner around that age than getting some large chunk of money as an inheritance when they're like 60 years old and already sort of financially fine.

So my dad's reading this book. He's sort of agreeing with some of the points being made, much to my advantage. But he has this philosophy of not giving us money. He didn't want to give us money, really, as children. So he decided that, okay if I'm going to think about ways to sort of spend money in ways that are going to bring me happiness and bring me longing happiness, if I'm also, at the same time, going to start thinking about giving money away to my kids, why don't I do both simultaneously?

He figured the best way to do that was to take us on vacations. So this sort of has been music to my ears. So we have been going on family vacations. Now we don't go every year.

Because I mean, this is, okay quick segue, Devon. I have two older brothers. I love them dearly. They both just got married. Love their spouses dearly. I have two new sisters-in-law. Yay. Okay, we got that out the way. They are at the point where they are having children. Which, okay I love my new niece, my new nephew. We got another one on what. All this stuff is happening.

But it's really put a dent in my vacation plans because we have been trying to book these things. It's like oh, your wife's pregnant. Okay. All right. Well, I guess that means we're going to wait another seven months. Then it's they don't want to leave the newborn, which I understand. I'm trying to be accommodating. Then my other brother, his wife, gets pregnant. I'm like y'all seriously? Seriously? Another one? Cool. I mean, I'm happy for you. I don't want to make it seem like it's all about me.

But can we just for a second, before we celebrate our new niece or nephew, can we please go on vacation? So anyway. So we sort of have been planning this thing. My dad, at this point, was like four years ago, when we were trying to plan this. Was like where do you all want to go? So he kind of gave us free reign. Where do you want to go? I knew that I had to sort of do this trip around my sister-in-law’s baby making schedules. So I knew that one of them was going to probably get pregnant with baby number two.

So as a physician, I was thinking, okay, where's somewhere that we could travel if someone is pregnant, and then what's the most optimal times to go? Maybe not in the first couple of months when you're like nausea all that stuff, but then not when the baby's super viable because then if something happens, we don't want to have an emergency. So we were sort of timing it.

We realized that the best time for us as a family to travel would have been late February of this year. Because even if they were pregnant, the babies weren't going to be viable, all that sort of stuff. So we knew we wanted to travel around this time. We said okay, well, what's a good place to go in late February? It's not usually like a big vacation time.

We were thinking, we were like well, we'd like to go somewhere warm. We want to go somewhere expensive since Dad’s paying. So we were like okay, where can we go where it's warm and a place that maybe we couldn't easily afford on our own? So we were thinking, okay where in the world would it be summertime? We were like oh in Africa, in South Africa, which we'd heard about and sort of been already been interested in.

So we looked at it, and we realized, okay, this is where we want to go. We had some other places on our list. We were thinking about Egypt. My dad really wanted to do Australia, but I thought the flight was too long if someone was pregnant. So anyway, we settled on South Africa around this time. My dad was like okay, I'm giving each person sort of a set amount of money. So don't be booking first class flights on me. Sort of each person has a set amount of money.

My dad had actually used this travel company called Trafalgar. I do not get paid by Trafalgar, although at this point, probably should. We have used them before when we had done this family vacation to Europe several years ago. They basically have different lines depending on how much money you want to spend. So there's sort of like the cheapest sort of option, there's like a middle of the road option, there's like a luxury option. We decided on one of the cheaper options, actually, because it was one of the few options that allowed us to like go to a bunch of different places in a reasonable amount of time and all of that.

So anyway, we ended up booking this trip through this sort of sister company of Trafalgar. In this trip it that that we were going to go to Cape Town, Johannesburg. We're going to do this African Safari. We were going to go see Victoria Falls, which is one of the natural seven wonders of the world. We were this sounds amazing. So that's sort of the trip.

As I'm planning for the trip, I'm understanding a few things. Okay. We're going through a travel agency who's going to book our hotels, pay for most of our meals, and all of that stuff. So there's a chunk of money that we need to send to the travel agent. Then there's the flights that were booking separately. My father said look, I can pay for all of this for all of you right now, or pay my chunk for all of you right now. Or I can give you each the money, and you pay on your own.

I was okay, all right, Devon’s taught me well. So, I ended up putting the travel agency costs on my Chase Sapphire Preferred at the time because it was giving me two times points on travel. So I ended up doing that. Then I started to think how am I going to book the flights? In the back of my head, I had your voice saying that I might be able to book some sort of first class flight. I was like okay, I'm accumulating these points.

At this point, I hadn't yet accumulated the 750. But I had accumulated probably around 400,000 or so. I thought well, it must have been November, December. I knew we were traveling at the end of February. I was like Devon books her travel like three years in advance. I don't know if it's too late for me. Can I still find a deal? It's like four months in advance. I don't know if this is possible. But I was like okay, there's no harm in looking.

So I started to go, I think I went on KLM or Flying Blue or something. I could not figure out if there was a difference, if they were the same thing or different things because I was like how do I even log in? So then I realized I needed to make loyalty accounts for that program. I started looking at what are transfer partners because at that point I had Amex and Chase. So I said okay well, what airlines actually transfer? So I started the process. I realized there were 20 gazillion different airlines. I didn't really know where to start.

I was okay, let me see which airlines have direct flights from Atlanta to, at that time, I was trying to book a one way to Cape Town. I narrowed it down from there. I was looking, I think, at Virgin Atlantic, Air Canada, KLM Flying Blue, and maybe British Airways or something. I heard you talk so highly about Qatar Suites. I really did try to do my best, but that was not an option for me. Those business class seats were already booked up because, remember, my trip was like in four months.

But I happen to search on Virgin Atlantic and actually find that there were business class seats available still. I also heard you in the back of my mind saying that you had booked first class business with around 50,000 points. I was like okay what I'm seeing on my screen is definitely not 50,000 points. So I don't know if this is like the worst redemption in the world, or if this is still decent.

But I was going from Atlanta, which is where I live, to Cape Town. For points flights, there wasn't a direct flight. It was going to have a layover in London. I looked at the length of the flights. I think my flight from Atlanta to London was like eight hours, and the flight from London to Cape Town was like 12 hours. So it's a long flight. The points cost on Virgin Atlantic was, I think, around 100,000 points. I was like okay if Devon says a good business class. Devon, you were like my measuring stick.

I'm like okay if Devon says a good first class flight is around 50,000 from the States to Europe then maybe it isn't the worst redemption in the world if I'm getting my Atlanta to Europe flight and my flight from Europe to South Africa. So I was okay with it. But I did look at this because I was like okay let me see if this is an abomination or what. So the points cost, I believe, was around 100,000 points with $500 or $700 per person in taxes or something like that. So 100,000 points plus 700 in taxes and fees. The cash price of that flight at the time that I was looking was around $7,500.

So by the time I said okay if I were to book first class in cash, which I would have never done, but I was just curious to see. $7,500 minus whatever I was going to pay if I did the points reduction in cash, did that, figured that it was what $7,000 or something along those lines. Then I said, okay let me take the points price divided by whatever the cash price is, and it ended up being 6.3 cents per point. I was I think this is pretty good. Slash, even if it's not good. It's saving me money.

Because I would, if I had not met you, Devon, I would have booked an economy flight on Delta that would have cost me $1,500 one way because that's how much money my sister-in-law was paying and my brother was paying and my father was paying. I was like wow, not only do I not have to spend this $1,500 on this one way flight to Cape Town, but I get to use points. I'm saving so much more money, and it's business. So I get a bed on the plane.

Devon, segue, in my mind. Have you seen that movie Crazy Rich Asians? Okay, so in the beginning of the movie when she doesn't know he's rich, and they're like arrive to the airport, that's what my vision is. I'm like oh is that going to be me? So anyway, that was not quite what it looks like in business class, but I was very excited about oh my gosh, I don't even know what this is but I'm excited already because I've saved money on my one way flight to Cape Town.

I get a bed both ways. We have this short layover in London. But now we have access to lounges, which I had never really been in, not internationally. I was like oh my gosh, I'm getting 6.3 cents per points. I did not have to book it three years in advance. I booked it for months in advance, and there was still something available for me.

So I think this experience taught me a lot of things. One, I can actually find good value on my own, which I did not believe that I could without calling you Devon 20 million times. So I was very proud of myself that I could do that on my own. Two, that I didn't need to book so far in advance. I mean, yes, I'm sure the flight would have been cheaper had I actually been in a position to accumulate the points in advance and been in a position to book it in advance, but that wasn’t me. I could not have done that. So it was nice to know that even me booking four months in advance could still find something.

Then I remembered you in my head saying, now your travel budget can go so much further. Because I wasn't able to find a really good points redemption flight on the way from South Africa because we were leaving actually from Johannesburg, and I needed to get back to Atlanta. I was like well, I saved so much money on the flight there, I might actually be able to pay cash on the flight back, which is what I did.

Delta was running some special, I don't know. There was probably some kink in their system that I wasn't supposed to find but I found. Where I was actually able to book a business class flight on Delta through like an Air France flight or something for I think was $2,000 cash.

Which is, okay anybody listening to this, I get you. $2,000 for a one way flight, sort of not the cheapest amount, but it was from South Africa. It's like a 20 hour flight. It's business with a bed. I was like I actually think this is a good redemption. I should do this. So I ended up doing this, which also taught me that okay getting free flights or substantially reduced flights is one thing. But also this points game helps to stretch my travel budget so that now I can afford things that previously I may not have even afforded.

I wouldn't have even looked in the business class section on that site. Like I have so ingrained in myself to be so frugal that I just, before meeting you, it was like economy all the way because only like rich people are in business class. So it was oh, that can be me. I don't have to have $8 million in the bank in order for it to be me.

So yeah, I think since because of meeting you, I was able to optimize spend by putting the I think it was like $3,000 or whatever that we paid to the travel agency to book the hotels and all that on our behalf. I was able to optimize that by putting it on a card that gave me two times spend. At the time, I was working on that signup bonus for the Chase Sapphire Preferred. So it just helped me reach that bonus sooner. So it was like putting the expenses on the card.

Knowing enough to tell my dad hey, give me the money. So I can do it so I can accumulate the points. Then it was actually getting those points, seeing the points balance, and being I don't know if I'm supposed to wait until I have a million points to start redeeming. But you know what? If I'm going to use these points to optimize my life, I want to use them to optimize my life. So you know what? I've got this flight coming up. I'm going to look for it.

The first time I started searching on different things, I was a little bit overwhelmed. I was like this is kind of a lot to have to make loyalty counts with these different airlines and like search for flights. It's not super easy. At least it wasn't for me the first time I was checking. I was like I don't even know if I'm doing this right.

I went on KLM Air France, and I saw that the business class flight was like 8,000 million points. I was like well, that's not what Devon told me it was going to be. So I was like am I doing something wrong? Is there a different site she's using? So I was a little daunting, but I kept going at and I kept looking. Eventually I did see this, and I did calculate the redemption. I did see that I was getting a good deal. It just, it was so relieving.

Then actually taking the trip, Devon, because what? It was amazing. They're serving me wine, all the wine I want. I drank so much wine that I was little, let's just say my head didn't feel so great the next day. So it was just a great overall trip. I'm happy to tell you more. But I just wanted to relay like those points along the way that like you don't have to be some points guru in order to start accumulating points. You don't have to be in this hobby for years in order to redeem them for great value.

Devon: Yeah, I think you're such an amazing example of that. I do think that it can be challenging, especially in the beginning. Nobody is born understanding all these different loyalty accounts and different credit card points currencies. So I think it can sometimes be a little bit daunting, like you said, when you start accumulating points and you start feeling confident about that. Then the first time that you go to really start looking at what are your options for, especially a big flight, like the one that you were thinking of doing. International multi-leg type of flight. That can become a little bit overwhelming.

So I think it really is just a great reminder that, again, perfection is not required whatsoever. To me, the whole point of points is what is this going to allow me to do that otherwise just wouldn't be on the table for me for this trip? That can look different for everybody. I love that you sort of allowed yourself that latitude to say hey, this is what's going to work for me. Going on the way over, it's great to have found this business class option.

Then when you found, I'm sorry but $2,000 one way in business class from South Africa to the States, I don't think I've personally ever seen a rate like that. If I had seen, my husband is probably thrilled I did not see that because that's the type of thing I probably would have seen, booked, then been like no, we couldn't pass this up.

So that is such a great, in my opinion, such a great use of points, especially for your first trip. But I know that South Africa is on the travel wish list for so many folks. It is such an amazing, beautiful, incredible country. For people who are also thinking about and wanting to travel there, I wonder if you could just give us a couple of your favorite either places or things you did. What should other people at least consider not missing out on if they're also planning a trip to South Africa?

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, so this was my first time in the continent of Africa. So let me be very clear, I didn't really have a lot of expectations. I was like I've heard good things. I've heard it's beautiful. But I hadn't even really like Googled what does it look like? I just knew that it was a place that for some reason I'd wanted to go.

When I was looking on the travel agency site, they had all these different packages of places you could go, and they would plan the itinerary. So it seemed like okay, this isn't going to be cumbersome for me to do this. Somebody else will plan it. Somebody else will pay for everything and get everything sorted out, hotels, all of that jazz. I was like, okay I don't really have any expectations.

When I got there to Cape Town, I was like oh my goodness, this place is so beautiful. I've been to different countries in Europe. I have traveled to Central America. I had been to Hawaii. I've been to a decent amount of places. I was like this is so beautiful. When I first got to Cape Town, it was so funny. I was talking to some of the people who were traveling with our family.

First of all, let me just say this. So I was traveling with eight family members. It was me and seven other people, right. The travel group was only 12. So it was like my entire family took up the whole trip, basically. Then there was like this lovely elderly couple who they were like are we on the wrong group? Then there was like another physician, actually. So him and I connected really well and his sister. So we basically took up the entire group.

But when I first got to Cape Town and I was meeting them, I'm telling you about the people that I met because they were actually from Los Angeles. I used to live in Los Angeles. That matters because when we got to Cape Town, we all said are we in LA? Because it looked like Malibu. It looked like Malibu. The beaches were so beautiful. It just had that Malibu. You know you're in a good place when people are just like running for no reason. That's the joke. You know you're in a safe area, you know you're in a fun area when people all around you are like exercising.

So people are running. There's hills. There's mountains. There's trees. There's beach. There's water. People look like they're having a great time. There's parks, and there's just kids running all over the place. I go wow. I didn't have any expectations, but this looks beautiful. There's another area where I thought this looks like Miami. There's like palm trees everywhere. I'm like oh my goodness.

So first thing I see in Cape Town is the beach, which I think is just lovely. Then the next day we are doing this tour of Cape Town. There's a part that reminds me of Colombia, the country Colombia, because there's like houses of these different pastel colors, which I find fascinating. So that was cool. There was this mountainous air. I mean the mountains were beautiful. So it just sort of reminded me of Colorado a little bit in terms of like the mountains.

Then Devon, as I sort of alluded to, I sort of have this love for wine. So, Cape Town has a ton of vineyards. So we knew that we wanted to dedicate an entire day to the vineyards. Basically, I convinced my family. I told them that's what we were doing. So we went to about four vineyards in one day. It was just, again, so lovely doing wine tastings. There's nothing like doing a wine tasting with your family. My mom doesn't really love wine unless it has like eight pounds of sugar in it.

Meanwhile, like my oldest brother's like this wine, basically pretends he's a sommelier but really he's not. Then I've got a sister-in-law who's sort of in the middle. Anyway, we're all over the place. So we're all trying these wines. We realize that our money goes really far. In South Africa, their currency is the rand. One US dollar is the equivalent of 20 South American rand. So there's the currency factor.

But when we were doing the conversion in our head, again, finance focused family. We're like did we just pay five American dollars for this wine tasting? Are the oysters six dollars? So we'll take the bottle. So we're having a blast because we're all together. I mean, I remember the last time I spent 10 days with like my siblings and my sisters-in-law and my parents, and we didn't kill each other. So that was lovely.

But we're doing this wine tasting. We ended up going to the Cape Peninsula, which is like the southernmost part of Africa. So that was super cool. So we spent some time in Cape Town. Then the travel company actually had booked us flights to Johannesburg, which is like another sort of large city in South Africa.

So if Cape Town is sort of like the Malibu slash Miami lash Colorado because of the mountains, Johannesburg is sort of like their New York. That's where their financial system is. So you're seeing these large buildings. They have a lot of things that are dedicated to Nelson Mandela there. So we got to sort of see those sorts of areas. So we flew to Johannesburg to see all of that.

Then we took sort of like this charter bus to what seemed to be the middle of nowhere. Your antennas are going up because you're like how far is this drive? Where are we going? What city am I in at this point? But anyway, we were traveling a long time to go near Bela-Bela, which is where I guess one of their best safaris are.

I've got to tell you, Devon, that place was beautiful. The name of the place is Safari Plains. They have basically each person that stays there stays in their own private, like cabana. It is so beautiful. Then like the centralized area where people can congregate that had like this large resort style pool. All the food was there, like freshly prepared, sort of all you can eat. It was just like the freshest fruits and the meat was so fresh, and just like the bartenders were like trying to serve us drinks. Remember, our money's going far.

So my sister-in-law, who loves Johnnie Walker, is like oh this would cost $30 in the States. Serve me up. I mean, she's a lovely person, but I'm just saying like, you know. So we're feeling lovely. We’re doing this Safari. We have good drivers in the Safari. I mean, we're seeing all of these animals that it was just so fascinating. It was fascinating for me.

I hate going to the zoo. Let me just put this out there. I don't like going to the zoo. I feel like the animals are caged up. It smells and stinks. I'm outside. I'm sweating. It's just there's kids running around. I mean, I love kids. But I'm just saying it's like not my idea of fun, going to a zoo.

Even me who doesn't like going to the zoo, I found the safari just so amazing. There's something like thing the animals in their natural habitat. We're just driving through and the sun is setting and people are telling us about the animals, and I'm able to see them.  I'm like are we going a little too close? It seems like. How do we know they're not going to attack us? Are we sure?

But I'm seeing lions. I'm seeing not just one but multiple and all of their clubs, and they're playing with each other. They see us making eye contact, which I'm like is this how I'm about to go out. But it ended up being fine. We see elephants. We see giraffes. The next day when we're at the resort, actually, the giraffes come so close to where we are because there's a little lake there, and they're drinking water there. There's an entire family.

I mean, I was like oh my goodness. I cannot believe they're in front of our face. I cannot believe they came to the resort to drink water. Because the way the safaris usually go is you go out in the safari early in the morning and then you go out around sunset. So you have sort of this day to relax, and we're relaxing around the pool. We were in this sort of Safari Plains area for about three days, two, three days-ish. Then we leave there, go back to Johannesburg, spend a little time in Johannesburg sort of exploring that city.

So at this point, we've done Cape Town, we've done Johannesburg, we've done sort of this Bela-Bela Safari area. Then they had booked flights for us to go to Zimbabwe, which is a country right near South Africa so that we could see Victoria Falls. Victoria Falls, I mentioned one of the seven natural wonders of the world because they have basically the largest waterfall.

I'm not somebody who is like oh a waterfall. Like when I used to live in Los Angeles, people would say to me, Lisha, let's go hiking for eight hours and walk uphill so that we can see some water trickle down from a rock. I would be I'm good. Why don't you go? Send me a photo, and I will enjoy the experience vicariously. So just saying that to say I'm not a huge hike. I'll go if it's like girlfriends and we're chatting, but not really something I'm waking up at 6:00 a.m. for.

But this was different. I mean, that waterfall was huge. I mean, it was just breathtaking. Seeing the smoke come up from the water and just how long it was and how tall it was and how it was so, I mean, it took us an hour to even see the whole thing it was so large. So we ended up going to Victoria Fall. Where we were staying in Victoria Falls, again, natural habitat, apparently because we're eating dinner, and we literally see elephants where we're eating.

I’m like first I'm fascinated. Then the elephants get a little close, and I'm like okay so the people who own this place are not freaked out. So I can calm down. But it was just oh my goodness.

So this was like a 30 minute answer of like my experience in South Africa. But like I'm saying this because it was probably one of our best family vacations just because we got to do so much, and we didn't have these like large expectations of it's going to be so luxurious or whatever. It was like, at least for me, I got everything I wanted. I got the good views, I got the beach, I got the mountains, I got the wineries, I got the city, I got the safari, I got the waterfalls and the rain forest. Like it was just when I'm thinking about a vacation, it's like wow, I get all of that here. So it was just a lovely trip.

Devon: Yeah, it sounds absolutely amazing. I have been to South Africa one time, but I have not yet been able to get out either to Cape Town or to the Falls. I think it's just an area, honestly, it seems like you could spend months and months and months exploring and barely even scratch the surface. So I always love hearing how other people arrange their trips there and kind of what they would recommend to other folks as well.

There are seriously so many different questions that I want to ask you. But I just have one more question before we wrap up today. That is you actually host your own podcast. It is fantastic. It's called The Wealth Minded MD Podcast. We'll link that up in the show description, in the show notes so everybody can check that out. But one of my favorite segments that you do with your co host on that podcast is something that you call money mishaps and confession where you talk about some of your missteps around money, what you both learned, and what you would do differently.

So I was curious if you have any points or travel mishaps or confessions that come to mind when you think about your journey, especially over the last six and a half months into award travel, and what you would offer and share with everybody about things that you know better about now and that you would do differently?

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, so I've been thinking about this. I was like man, I made some mistakes in the beginning, but it's okay. Devon to the rescue. My life is better now. So I'm very grateful. But if I had to think back to my mistakes, one is just putting credit cards, one I guess is not using credit cards, being afraid to use credit cards. I was afraid, again, because it took so long to pay off that debt. Also because I had been taught that taking out credit cards was harmful to your credit score.

So it was like I was sort of in this bind where I didn't want to use them. I was sort of afraid that it was going to drop my credit score. Now, of course, I learned the credit score does drop temporarily, but then it rebounds because your credit utilization drops. So it ends up working out a lot better. But sort of my first, I guess, mistake is like not even using credit cards.

Then once I started thinking about using credit cards, it was not using credit cards that had transferable points, right. So it was okay. I'm accumulating points on these credit cards for my credit union. But all I can do is really redeem them for cash or get a statement credit or like buy Starbucks gift cards, which okay is better than what I had been getting. But let's just say that's not the best value that I could get from my points. So it's not using those transferable cards.

It was getting that Delta card first and just putting on the spend on it. I mean, now I really like the card because it helps me reach status. I find getting upgrades to Comfort Plus for domestic flights really valuable. I'm sky priority. So I check in and board before other people. So I do find it valuable. But I just think if I could go back in time, it wouldn't have been my first card, and I wouldn't be putting so much spend on it initially.

So I think another mistake is that I didn't realize I was at 5/24. Nor did I really realize what 5/24 was. So I think had I really known that, I would have maybe done things differently. Like I love that Chase Sapphire Preferred card, but had I known I was already close, I maybe would have gone with the Chase Ink Business Preferred card first and just started with the business card since I do have businesses and things like that. So I think those are some of my money mistakes.

I've learned from them, right? Sometimes I cringe at how much I put on that Delta card because I'm like I put so much spend on that Delta card, Devon, that like whatever you need it to get the first status, they gave me an extra status boost because I just basically kept spending money on the card. It was okay, maybe I'm probably making Delta a lot of money. I didn't even have lounge access. Like there are just so many things.

So I mean, now I've learned from them. I have multiple cards. I mentioned that I've got the Chase Sapphire Preferred that I plan on keeping that I absolutely like and I use a lot for hotels and things like that. I put my online grocery spend for Blue Apron on that card. I really love.

My favorite card is the Amex Personal Gold. I mean, the spend in the points that I accumulate from groceries and from eating out because apparently all I do is spend money on food has been helpful. The Uber credit I find valuable. Linking it to racket 10 has been really helpful. Sometimes they have these bonuses when you get referrals. So I just find that Amex Personal Gold card to be really valuable.

I do like the Chase Ink Business Unlimited card because it's an Ink card and it gives me 1.5 spend on a lot of the non-category stuff. So if I'm not working on a signup bonus, I'll usually put my charitable giving on that card. Now I'm learning that I can use credit card points to pay down my student loans. So being able to use some of those cards for that.

So that's been really enjoyable experience for me, I just got the Amex Business Platinum. So I'm excited about now getting lounge access basically everywhere, like this Centurion, the priority pass, Delta lounge when I'm flying Delta. So I'm really excited about that. So, yeah.

I'm learning about Hyatt. I just, fun fact, booked a couple of Hyatt stays. I'm traveling to Madrid soon so I'd love to tell you about that trip at some point and booked a Hyatt stay there. Then going to Cabo my birthday, another trip I'd love to tell you about at some point later and booked an all-inclusive there.

So I'm sort of one of those people who is accumulating points and spending them. But I don't know if I should be stacking them. But I'm really enjoying the incredible things that I get to do now with points. I know that that wouldn't have been possible without you.

People tell me all the time when I'm coaching them around personal finance that they're so grateful that I'm teaching them how to invest and that they're building wealth and eliminating debt. I see the positive influence that it has on them, but I'm just so grateful for them. I'm so grateful that I'm able to help doctors reach that level of financial independence.

Now I finally understand, Devon, how they feel because I sort of, I feel that exact same way about you and how you have just elevated my life in so many ways, when it comes to travel, and not only elevated my life but elevated so many other people's lives and put us in position to be able to help other people. So I'm just entirely grateful for you. I wanted to make sure that I said that because, again, I've been talking for a gazillion minutes. Just in case you forgot, in case it got lost in all the other random stuff I say, I wanted to make sure you knew how much I appreciate you.

Devon: Thank you so much for saying that. Obviously makes me incredibly uncomfortable. But I think my life truly was so significantly and dramatically changed when I really understood the opportunity that existed with credit card points. It was so obvious to me from the very beginning that there are so many folks who are in such an amazing position to also benefit from points.

It really has been just as gratifying for me to see other people learn how to start really optimizing this hobby and having experiences that they might not otherwise ever have had, especially in terms of travel. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your experiences here. I always love hearing stories because we all have a different, little bit of a different perspective on earning points and using points. We all have different backgrounds around money and finances. I think that we all benefit when we are able to share those stories.

So I'm just really grateful and appreciative that you came on today to share your story. I appreciate you so much. For people who want to learn more about you and the incredible work that you were doing in this world, where are some places that they can find you?

Dr. Taylor: Yeah, so my personal Instagram is Dr. Lisha Taylor. So D-R L-I-S-H-A, Taylor, T-A-Y-L-O-R. My podcast, we actually have an Instagram page. So you can check out some of the awesome stuff we're doing with the podcast. It's Wealth Minded MD. I do that with my co-host, Dr. Brittne Halford. That has just spin a whole host of fun.

I mean, if you want a little dose of wit and wisdom and wealth building stories and tidbits, but also money confessions from like doctors who are just, who don't get it all right, but are trying to share but also hear about our fun money stories. Of course, we've got a little financial focus. We'll have you on the podcast to give us some wealthy insights. We got it all covered.

Brittne and I are just so excited to be able to put a fun spin on personal finance because we feel like, this is a little segue, that the personal finance world is just filled with men. No offense to the male gender. I think you all are lovely. However, I also think that finance doesn't have to be boring. You don't have to go to sleep whenever you listen to a finance podcast. It could be fun. It can be upbeat. You can learn from other people who are not perfect but who have accumulated a substantial amount of assets and are ready to share that with the world.

So Brittne and I are just so excited. I could obviously talk about this all day, but I will spare you, Devon, and your listenership. So my point in saying all that is that you can check us out at Wealth Minded MD Instagram. Obviously, that's the name of the podcast, Wealth Minded MD. So feel free to check out the podcast. You're going to hear your lovely friend Devon on there soon because we're getting Devon on because she's so amazing. I can't stop talking to her. So there's that. But yeah, those are some places where y'all can find us.

Devon: Amazing. We're going to link up all of that information in the episode description and the show notes so it's very easy for people to find. Lisha, thank you so much for joining me today. As always, it has been so much fun and an absolute pleasure to talk with you.

Dr. Taylor: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

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