90. Points Play: The Ultimate ‘Would You Rather’ Game

Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel the world. I'm your host, Devon Gimbel, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest untapped asset if you know how to leverage them. Ready to dive into the world of credit card points and miles so you can travel more, travel better, and travel often? Let's get started.

Devon: Alright. Welcome back to the podcast, everybody. Today's episode is a first. It may also be the last time that we try this, depending on how things go. I've invited four of my favorite Points and Miles friends, podcast fan favorites, and all around award travel experts for a game of Points and Miles, Would You Rather questions.

Now for those unfamiliar with this game, each of our guests today is going to be asked a question where they have to pick between 2 options and either both options are fantastic or both options suck, but either way, it's bound to be informative and entertaining as you get to hear how experienced points earners and award travelers think.

So joining me today are guests, Dr. Sujatha Murali, Kelly, The Points and Miles Doc, Kevin Zanes, The Points Analyst, and Dr. Andrea Mabry. None of them have been given any warning about what they might get asked. So these entirely hypothetical and made-up questions should be a lot of fun.

So first, I would really like to welcome everybody to the podcast today. Thank you all so much for joining me. And I'm going to kick it off with a question that everyone is going to get a chance to answer. 

So everyone's gonna answer this first question and then after that, each of you are gonna get your very own Would You Rather question to tackle. So to kick it off today, Kevin, I'm gonna put you on the spot and you're gonna be the first one of the 5 of us to answer this first merry-go-round question of would you rather.

And the question is, would you rather lose 50% of all of your current points and miles overnight or be ineligible to earn any welcome bonuses at all for 1 year?

Kevin: I feel like you're punishing me because I'm the only not doctor on the podcast right now. So for me, that's actually a super easy question because I just blew all of my points and miles on a massive family vacation. So I would gladly take the 50% hit to my balance, which is very low right now, versus losing the ability to earn signup bonuses for the rest of my kind of points and miles life. 

And again, for those that I forget if I said this on the last podcast, but we did a trip to Bali, Indonesia as a family of 6 earlier this summer. So it was somewhere between a million and a half to 2 million point trip. So again, the balances are all pretty low right now. So for me, that's actually a pretty easy one.

Devon: Okay, well, let's rewind. Before you booked that trip, what would your answer have been?

Kevin: Still the same answer probably because the reality is, you know, that's a short term versus long term question, right? Would you rather take a short term hit and sacrifice the long term or would you rather, you know, keep the short term and sacrifice the long term? 

And for me, I plan on doing this for the next 20, 30 years as long as credit cards and banks will let me do it. And so when you look at the, again, super nerdy answer, if you look at the net present value of my points over the next 30 years, assuming that I earn between 2 and 2 and a half million points, that is a very simple mathematical question.

Devon: I'm glad it was so simple for you because I completely disagree with you and have a totally different answer. But before we get into our very first argument, I want to hear where the other 3 folks on this call land. So Sujatha, I'm going to come to you next. It's going to be the same exact question. I'm happy to repeat it if you don't remember it, or if you know your answer right off the bat.

Let's hear what you would say.

Dr. Sujatha: I completely agree with him. I think subs for us are the absolute lifeblood of this hobby. So it's the end of the year. We have $20, 000 in property tax due and another 5 figures of income tax due in January. In the last 2 weeks, I've opened up 8 cards. 8. And I've gotten declined for some of them. So I have just been. We would not survive without subs. 

So for us, we generate points, I think, so quickly because of subs that having a 50% hit for us is just not a big deal. So absolutely agree with Kevin. I don't know what we would do if we could not open up.

Devon: Okay, I feel like we could just spend the rest of the episode just asking you questions about your answer. I'm so curious, like, what are all the cards that you've applied for? What did you get denied for? But I'm going to try to rein myself in so that we can get through at least one of these would you rather questions. 

Now I'm super curious, am I going to be the lone person who's going to be the standout on the other side of this question? Kelly, I'm coming to you next. What is your answer?

Kelly: No, Devon, I'm going with your sentiment on this one. I think we're sitting on close to 2 million points right now. So obviously I don't want to lose 50% of that. But I don't mind going without sign-up bonuses or welcome offers for a year. I preach that I'm one of those people over 524 all the time.

So I'm used to restraint and not being able to open up cards for certain seasons of life. And that's totally OK with me. So yeah, I would totally keep what we have now and move that. But also to Sujatha's point, Yes, there is a season for opening up cards, absolutely. And then when you've been in this for a decade, you know, there are also seasons where you're not going to be opening up cards for a certain amount of time.

And so you can get used to those lapses and times where you're not earning those welcome offers. Because eventually at some point, you do run out of cards to open over and over and over.

Devon: Yeah, absolutely. Well, not only did you just give the right answer, so I'm really pleased that you also feel the same way I do about this. But we're gonna get even more into, again, just why we think the way that we think, what are some of the factors that affect the decisions that we're making. But I love all of the points you made. But Andrea, you are apparently going to be the tiebreaker on this one.

Before I talk a little bit about what my answer is, I want to hear which of those 2 not amazing options would you pick between?

Dr. Andrea: Okay, I am going with the not earn a sub for a year because I just looked, okay, and I have over 3 million points across all platforms. And so I would lose 1.5 million and my subs for this year totaled 930, 000. And so I would lose less by not taking subs for a year.

Devon: I love that within the span of like 2 minutes, you were able to go in there and figure out not only what is your overall cumulative points balance, but how much have you also earned in subs so far. You know that that is a person who readily has access to detailed spreadsheets if you're able to pull that data completely unprepared. Because like I said, I didn't share any of these questions with anybody. I am nowhere near as prepared as you. I have not done.

I promised myself after Kelly and I had our like audiobook version four-hour marathon of dissecting our 2023 points earning and using, I promised myself that I would keep month to month tracking this year of all of my points earned and used, and here we are towards the end of October, and it has not happened yet. 

So I will be doing that at some point, because I do like to see. But I am on the same side as you and Kelly are. And that being said, of course, and none of these questions have a right answer, a wrong answer. And I think this is why it was so fun, the idea of having this type of conversation to hear how do people approach these things?

And why do you think the way that you think? And would something else make you change your mind or make you change your answer? So I completely agree with Kevin, you know, in the sense that, oh, if I had just used all of my points and miles to book some epic trip, what is the hit to lose a little bit of points or miles versus that then ability to replenish all of your, you know, points, currencies with new subs.

I'm over more in the situation that you are, Andrea, where when I look across all points and miles currencies, so I have 4 transferable points, currencies. Apparently this has been the year for me where I've also just started having tons of points and miles in airline-specific accounts, which was never really the case for me in the past.

But I don't know. There's lots of factors for that. But I'm also sitting on a little over 4 million points in miles total amongst everything between like Chase, Amex, Capital 1, Citi, Lufthansa Miles and more, Alaska, I mean, I just have all sorts of things hanging out. So for me, I would gladly give up subs for a year, but I'm also very much kind of in that phase in that season, like Kelly was mentioning where there are not a ton of cards right now that I'm dying to get. So I don't feel like that's a huge loss.

For whatever reason, Amex doesn't think I will take them up on no lifetime offers. And so I haven't gotten any of those at all this year. I would have taken them up on them, but they just never show up in my account. But I actually think not just the finite number of points or miles that I would lose, but I think for me, just one other nuance of this question is that there are points and miles that are easier and harder to earn, right? 

If all I had were maybe American Express points, I think I'd be more willing to sacrifice 50% of them because that is a currency that I think is a little bit easier to earn than other ones.

But right now I have 1.6 million American Airlines miles. I don't want to give up almost any of those. Now, I don't advocate for hoarding. Of course, I'm going to use them. And with a family of 4, that's not going to be that challenging.

But for me to lose overnight, you know, half of a points currency that is otherwise really challenging to get a lot of, I also mentioned Lufthansa miles and More. I don't want to give up half of those points in miles. I have a bunch of points and miles in Turkish Airlines, which, again, you can replenish with some transferable points currencies. 

But I have found myself moving more and more into niche points and miles currencies or somewhat harder to earn points and miles currencies and so I am much more reluctant to have to randomly I think give those up when I think it'd be much harder to earn a lot of them over again. So thank you all for answering that very first question and for proving that there is no right answer to a lot of these questions. So now we're gonna move into each of you.

I picked a very specific question for you based on what I think that you're really great at in points and miles or your areas of expertise or what you love in points and miles. And so you're each going to get your very own specially curated, would you rather question. 

And Sujatha, I'm coming to you first, but you're the only person where before you get your question, I have a pre-question for you. Okay, so your pre-question Sujatha, it's just off the top of your head. What are your personal 2 favorite transferable points currencies?

Dr. Sujatha: Chase and Amex.

Devon: I figured, but I just wanted to verify. So here's your question. Would you rather transfer all of your Chase points to Amex or transfer all of your Amex points to Chase and why?

Dr. Sujatha: So I thought about this actually, because I was listening to some other podcasts.

Devon: Why would you have thought about this? It's not an option!

Dr. Sujatha: Well because I know. Isn't that I know? Because I have issues. I was listening to some other podcast where this question came up in some form, like, you know, Chase for Amex, like very simple. And I was like, you know, this is an interesting sort of, you know, thought process to think about.

So, you know, for me, I think Amex, we, and we're not as strict as this, but we really do use Amex for flights and we really use Chase for hiatus. We're not big Star Alliance flyers here in San Diego. We're really all 1 world. 99% of our points go to Avios. So very easy from Amex.

The way I kind of think about this, and my answer is going to be, I know everyone's going to scream at me. All right, there are nuances to this. If I had to pick one currency, the currency would be Amex, simply because I am much more likely to pay for a hotel and I will never, ever pay $10, 000 for a flight. So For me, the flight redemptions are a lot more important to me than, you know, I don't have to stay at a park. I can find a $200, $300 hotel that I can pay cash for.

The problem though is the generation of the points, right? So it is just, you know, Amex is just not difficult. I mean, we, between Rakuten and the MLL offers, and you just generate them so quickly. You know, Chase points is a slog. After a point, you just can't open.

So this is the problem. I opened one of those 8 cards I just opened was a chase card, only one because I can't open anymore. I am probably going to have to do companion pass next year. So I am literally not opening a single chase card in 25 until its companion pass season. So you have to kind of think about this.

And yet, you know what, my answer would be Chase to Amex. I think for the way we travel. Now, you know, a lot of people do domestic travel. They have kids on sports teams where they need to book, you know, high at nights and that's absolutely fine. For the 3 very big trips a year, our priority is really getting across the ocean comfortably. And those are incredibly expensive seats and Amex really allows the best way to do that.

Devon: Yeah, I think that makes so much sense. Now, 2 people I want to hear what they think about this is while you were talking Sujatha, Kelly was nodding her head vigorously yes, and Kevin was nodding his head vigorously no. And so I'm really curious to hear. 

Kelly, I'm gonna come to you first, and then I'm gonna go to Kevin. Kelly, just what are your thoughts about Sujatha's answer? Are you thinking that you would do the same exact thing? I'm curious.

Kelly: Kevin, this would be such a funny video because you can see our reactions, like, immediately as you go around, like, Brady Bunch style. But I agree with that. I would do the same thing. I value the diversity of the Amex points a little bit more. I'm really into Asia miles right now.

I've always found Avianca life miles to be useful, even though they have a bad reputation. And so I really enjoy their partners and I find that I'm burning the Amex miles a lot more than the Chase Ultimate rewards.

Devon: Okay, Kevin, the voice of dissent, tell us why you did not like Sujatha's answer at all.

Kevin: So before I have a clarifying question, is this a one-time transfer and then you get to rebuild, or is this like a permanent one-way movement of points?

Devon: You know, I didn't actually work my way that far down into the diagnostic algorithm of where these questions were coming from. So you can just take it at face value. However you initially interpreted it is how you can answer it.

Kevin: Yeah, so I'll go with like a one-time transfer. And the reason I was saying no, I jokingly said because I also knew from conversations like how Sujatha travels, where she loves the AVIOS program. 

And so, when you think about some of the best in general, high-level programs for the average person, we're looking at the AVIOS programs, we're looking at Air France Flying Blue, we're looking at Air Canada Aeroplan, and so when you look at those kind of 3 programs as an example, you have the same ability to transfer across both Chase and Amex. So when you look at that, again purely from an analytical perspective, it's exactly the same. It doesn't matter what your answer is, right?

The difference comes in when you want to potentially use those points for a hotel stay. And when that enters the equation, that swings it the other way to chase. And so again, when you think about the optionality that you have with that hotel option to be able to say, I wanna use it for flights or for hotels. To me personally, that creates more value and that's why I would move my Amex points to Chase versus my Chase points to Amex.

Devon: Yeah. Now, I know I said that we weren't going to do roundtable on every single one of these questions. That might end up being a lie, because I think there's still something interesting to hear from everybody about all of these. 

Because the thing that came up for me, Sujatha, when you were talking is that if I had to pick the single points currency, where someone said, there's 1 points currency you have to commit to, and you can earn these, but you can't earn any more of anything else. I actually think Amex points are more useful or I would, I feel like I'd be forced to pick Amex in terms of that would be the currency I would rely on if I had to.

And in terms of this question, I would rather transfer all my Amex points over to Chase basically any day of the week because for me, Amex points are so much easier to earn. And Chase are the points that I am always having to be very deliberate about deciding how much of our spend are we going to allocate to Chase cards, or how are we going to sign up for more chase cards or what are we going to do to get more chase points? 

And so if I had a one-time option where I could do this switcheroo, where you could just shove any of your transferable points currencies into another 1, I would go the Amex to chase ratio route, even though if I had to only pick one points currency to rely on, I think I would pick Amex. 

Now, Andrea, I don't want to exclude you from this question. So do you have any thoughts, anything that you want to throw into this portion of the conversation?

Dr. Andrea: My vote is with Kevin, only because I feel like every time I've used Amex points, I have also been able to use Capital 1 points and anything else. I only use Chase points for Hyatt. And there's nothing else, I mean, outside of Bilt, Okay, which is not easy to earn bill points. But it's such a unique transfer partner that you can't get from other transferable currencies. And I use it a lot.

I'm here right now in a Hyatt. And so for me, the Amex to Chase would be the choice that I would make.

Devon: All right, you've heard it from everybody now, Kevin. We're moving on to you. This is your would you rather question for the day. Would you rather win 1 million American Airlines miles or 5 million Delta SkyMiles?

Kevin: Again, I feel like I'm being punished for not being the only doctor.

Devon: None of these questions are medically related, I promise you.

Kevin: I know, I just feel like it has to be somehow related that I'm being punished for something I did in a previous life right now. So I think I would take the, and this is going to shock people, I'd take the Delta Sky Miles.

Devon: There's a lot going on in the background on today's video. There's a lot of reactions. I will probably have to post some of these for you all to see because Kevin answered that he would actually go with the Delta Sky Miles and there were a lot of facial contortions happening that we might get to. But Kevin, let's come back to you and justify, please, your answer. Why would you prefer to have 5 million Delta Sky Miles over 1 million American Airlines Miles?

Kevin: Yeah, so I don't have a fancy spreadsheet like Andrea did for her answer, but I did some quick math in my head, right? And here's the quick math. So basically, you're looking at a 5 to 1 ratio, right? So a good redemption for American Airlines points would be something like 60, 000 points to fly business class, right? So, if I use my 5 to 1 ratio, that means that an equivalent Delta redemption would be, and again, correct my math, 300, 000 points to fly a similar business class flight. 

So anything up to 300, 000 points should be okay. Now, I know from all of my award flight searches that I can pretty easily find a Delta business class flight either with Delta itself or with a partner airline for between let's call it a hundred thousand to a hundred and 50000 right? So given that I know that I can get that redemption I would theoretically be able to still have more business class flights for the 5 million Delta SkyMiles versus the 1 million American Airlines points. 

And that's just from flying to the US and actually coming back to the Point Me To First Class conference itself, I remember someone had mentioned that once you do non-US flights with Delta partners, you can actually get amazing value in business class seats. You can with American miles as well.

Again, one of my favorite ones that I talked about was the Etihad flight from Abu Dhabi to Asia for 40, 000 American Airlines points. But again, use your 5 to 1 ratio. That would be 200, 000 Delta SkyMiles. So as long as I'm under 200, 000 Delta SkyMiles for an international to international, you're still getting more value with Delta than you would from American Airlines.

Devon: Okay, little bit of a follow-up question. Is your answer impacted at all based on the differences in sort of like the route networks or the partner airlines that you can book specifically through American Airlines or specifically through Delta or taking into consideration more advanced kind of things that I know you spend a lot of time paying attention to like award availability in general, especially like multiple business class awards. You know, does your answer change if you're thinking about solo travel versus, you know, you have a family of 6. Does that play in at all?

Kevin: The family of 6 doesn't because again, each individual ticket is gonna be the same math that you do in general, right? And the award availability, I did think about a little bit because as much as people don't like to admit this, there is actually more availability with Delta than there is with American Airlines. 

American Airlines' award availability with partners has been very significantly decreasing over the last couple of years. And again, the classic example I always use, 3 years ago, it was relatively easy to find Qatar Airways space through American Airlines. Now, it's next to impossible.

And again, my data point is, if you look at every route for 365 days into the future with Qatar Airways through American Airlines, you're gonna get about 20 to 25 on average day route combinations across the entire network, 25, that's it. 

Now from a partner perspective, yes, American Airlines has better partners. One World in general has better products. You're looking at the Cathay Pacific products, you're looking at the Japan Airlines products, you're looking at Qantas products. You know, with American Airlines miles, you can book Etihad.

So the airlines themselves are actually better in the One World, but when I look at how many times could I fly business class, the difference in the product would not be enough to justify taking a third as many business class flights for me personally.

Devon: Yeah, and that's a great analysis. I'm curious if any of the other 3 folks on this call feel strongly enough that they want to counter or refute your answer or just add in any thoughts of their own. All right, so it looks like people are now a little bit less enthusiastic about arguing about this one. Andrea, did you want to say anything?

Dr. Andrea: Numbers don't lie. I mean, I did reference my fancy spreadsheet. And for me, my average MR redemption is 8.73. So 1 million Amex points would be $87, 300 in flights. And assuming I'm getting a 1 cent per point Delta redemption, that would be $50, 000. So for me, I think typically, I would be able to get a higher value out of a million MR.

Devon: Oh, but that wasn't the question. It was a million American Airlines miles.

Dr. Andrea: Oh, that's right.

Devon: 5 million Delta SkyMiles.

Dr. Andrea:  I looked at the wrong column in the spreadsheet.

Devon: Never mind. 

Kevin: I thought I answered the question like completely.

Dr. Andrea: Sorry, that was me.

Devon: You know what, we're here to make up our own questions as well. Everything is fair game on today's episode. So here's the thing, you know, thinking about American Airlines miles versus Delta SkyMiles, I think Delta tends to get kind of a bad rap in The Points and Miles world. But as Sujatha taught us all very recently, there are some amazing uses of Delta SkyMiles. So I wanted to give Delta just a little bit of attention today because it's not a program that tends to get the most amount of love.

So thank you for being the Delta advocate on today's episode, Kevin. The next question that we are going to be fielding, this one is coming to you, Kelly, all right? Would you rather earn 4 times points on all non-category spend with no cap on points earning on an airline co-branded credit card of your choice, you could pick the 1, or 2 times points on all non-category spend with a transferable points currency?

Kelly: Ooh, good 1. I think I'm going to go with the transferable points, pretty much always, even if I picked 1. And right now, my most recent co-branded card was Miles and More for more reasons that we will talk about at some other point. But I think our bonus spend, we're only a family of 2. I think our bonus spend and overall non-category spend overall just doesn't add up to that much.

And so I always need that flexibility. I've been sad to piggyback on Kevin's point. Like I've been a long time AA member and have always had lots of now loyalty points, and I've been sad that their partner availability is going down and down and down. 

And so I'm getting less and less enthusiastic about having miles locked up in a specific program. And I think the way that we see things going is that those partner awards are less and less available and that every program wants you to engage with their program on their metal.

And where do I want to fly long haul business class? You know, probably not AA or United or Delta or any of the airlines that we have domestically. Of course, we'll fly them domestically, but I just really want to have that freedom to transfer those points. So I'll take a lower earn rate. This is having done no math.

So if any of you disagree based on your spreadsheets, I would probably change my mind with your analysis, but I need that flexibility.

Devon: Yeah, I have not done any analysis, but I think the question is interesting from the perspective of, well, first of all, like all these questions, it's totally made up, right? Like there is no card, period, that earns 4 times points on all non-category spend, whether it's a transferable points earning card or, you know, an airline or hotel co-branded card. 

But I think, you know, from the perspective of a lot of us would advocate in general that we do prefer to earn transferable points currencies, or we at least put our focus on earning those transferable points currencies for the flexibility, the usability of them. But I'm wondering if there's sort of that break-even point or that point where you actually are willing to kind of lock yourself into one specific airline or one specific hotel currency at the right points earning rate. 

And I think one of the big kind of downfalls of a lot of co-branded cards in general is that they don't offer very compelling points earning outside of cash, you know, paid flights with that specific airline or, you know, cash paid hotel stays with that specific hotel.

And I think 1, We've talked already about some trends, you know, that we've been seeing over the last year, over the last couple of years. And I think one of the trends that I'm paying a lot of attention to is that we've seen this, to speak to Kevin's point, with Qatar. You know, before Qatar joined the Avios currency, there was amazing, pretty amazing award availability to book them through their partner, American Airlines. 

You know, they moved into the Avios Currency, and I think there's been a huge shift in Qatar, award availability in general, but certainly award availability based on which partner we're talking about, like American airlines. And we're starting to see more, I think, consolidation of airlines where it's not just here's all these different airlines, they're in an alliance and, you know, these 7 airlines are going to be transfer partners of these specific points currencies.

I feel like we're going to start to see also these more like sub partnerships, like what we've seen with obvious, I think we're going to start seeing Kevin, I'll get to you. I see your hand being raised there. You know, we've heard that Fiji Airways is going to adopt, you know, the American Airlines points currency. So I'm wondering, okay, how much is that going to end up shifting, you know, award availability specifically through Fiji. And then now we have, you know, Alaska kind of consuming and taking over the Hawaiian program.

And I'm wondering if in the future, not that transferable points currencies are not going to be useful. I think they always will be. But I do think there are going to be these little niches of airline subpartnerships or little groupings that are going to be harder and harder to access than they have been in the past with transferable points currencies. 

And so I wonder if there is going to be a role where everyone might have to pick kind of like what is their favorite niche currency because it's really not practical or possible again to try to collect, you know, 7 different airline currencies. But if there was an opportunity, you know, for a credit card that doesn't even exist now that comes out that says, okay, you can earn 4 times points on all your non-category spend with 1 very specific airline.

Would that actually then tip the balance and really convince some people to kind of go over and move in that direction? Kevin, what did you want to say about this?

Kevin: Kevin Kennedy Yeah, so on a different podcast, I actually made a couple of predictions of what I see happening in the future. I think it was the Be Boldly podcast. And 2 of them were exactly what you talked about, which is, 1, there has been a very noticeable insourcing, is what I call it, of award availability into specific programs. We've seen it with the Avios programs. We've seen a little bit with United as well, where they've insourced a lot of their own award space.

You know, you see it with Etihad where they don't give all the award space, but there's tons when you use their program. Same with Miles and More, which I know Kelly loves and has experienced recently. So that's spot on, one of the trends that you're seeing. And the second one is the creation of what I call these super currencies. And you kind of already see it a little bit with the Avios program.

And again, you see with Miles and more because Miles and more is actually the program for I think it's either 6 or 7 different airline programs. You're seeing it with American Airlines, you're seeing it with Alaska. And so I very much see in the future, especially within alliances, this move towards these super point currencies combined with the insourcing. 

And again, depending on your flight routes, I think that kind of perfect storm of trends would create a very compelling case to actually earn the airline's miles themselves versus the transferable points currency.

Devon: Yes, I agree with you, but I think it'll be really interesting to see if this trend does continue or if something else is going to come in and kind of like shake up the game again. But it does to me really seem like that is the direction we're moving. And I agree with you about that observation about what you call the insourcing of award availability. I do think we're starting to see that a lot more, not just with the airlines you mentioned. I've seen that too with EVA Airlines.

They have so much more award availability for their own frequent flier program members than we tend to see them release to any of their Star Alliance partners. 

And I think it's really going to force people, I think once they start feeling comfortable with earning and using a lot of the transferable points currencies, understanding, you know, transfer partners and all of that, I think sort of in the next iteration of skill development is going to be, hey, how much can you learn and understand about some of these more specific airline programs and really take advantage of what they have to offer. 

So it'll be an interesting thing. I feel like this is a very big trend shift. I've been doing this for more than a few years, and I really feel like something about the last 1 to 2 years feels very different in the way that some of these trends are moving.

So it'll be interesting to see where that heads out. Is there anybody else who wanted to just add any thoughts or insights on that question before we go to Andrea? All right, I'm not seeing anybody jump on their microphone. So Andrea, this one is for you. I know you're a Hyatt fan as I am.

So I'm giving you a Hyatt specific question, which is, would you rather have lifetime Hyatt globalist status, but only get to stay in category 1 through 5 properties or have to earn globalist status every year, but then you have access to the full entire portfolio of Hyatt properties. 1 through 5, not 1 through 4? 1 through 5.

Dr. Andrea: Okay. I'm still going globalist every year. Yeah. Tell us why. I like the fancy places.

That's my short answer. I like Park Hyatt, Kyoto. I like Park Hyatt, Chicago. I like Park Hyatt anywhere. And those are almost never category 1 through 5.

And I'm not saying that's all I said. I'm at a grand height right now, slumming it. Just kidding. But yeah, I don't want to be limited to 1 through 5. And since you can earn globalists with credit card spend and earn those nights.

Yes, it's a challenge and you do have opportunity cost of not putting it on a different card. But I don't have a paucity of spend. I can do it yearly and access those Category 6, 7, 8 properties.

Devon: Okay. Is there anybody on this call who's also familiar or a fan enough of Hyatt properties where you would take the opposite argument? Is there anyone here who would jump on lifetime globalist but only be limited to staying at category 1 through 5 properties. There's nobody here. That's so fascinating.

I actually didn't think that I was going to come up with a question where everybody was going to be kind of on the same side here. I will say that I think this really highlights, you know, where personal preferences come into play. I'm also a huge Hyatt fan. 

When I was making up this question, I was also thinking I would sacrifice lifetime guaranteed lifetime globalist status because I also like to be able to use status and the perks and benefits at the category 6 through 8 properties is where I think status becomes even more valuable at the more higher-end or more expensive properties. 

But I think for folks, again, who are not spending their way to globalist status or people, especially if you have a lot of international travel, where I think Hyatt's category 1 through 4, 1 through 5 properties are actually much more desirable than they are domestically.

If this question was turned a little bit, like if I had fulfilled my dream to become an expat and I was based somewhere else in the world, I might jump on the guaranteed Hyatt globalist status and be very happy staying at the category 1 through 5 properties. 

All right, now we are going to move into the lightning round portion of today's call. So we're going to go back to the roundtable. Everybody's going to get a chance to answer every single question. So with each question, first thing is, I just wanna hear your immediate top of your head answer.

And then as much as we want to dissect and discuss who's right, who's wrong, what are the points we need to consider about each of these, we can. So Kevin, I'm gonna come to you first. All I want to hear is just your immediate kind of gut reaction to this question. Then we'll go around to everybody. 

So our first lightning round question is, would you rather Japan Airlines join a transferable points currency as a transfer partner or Lufthansa?

Kevin: Lufthansa.

Devon: Kelly, which one would you pick? JAL or Lufthansa?

Kelly: JAL.

Devon: Oh, okay. Sujatha, what about you?

Dr. Sujatha: JAL.

Devon: Okay. Andrea? Lufthansa. Okay, so we're 2 for 2. So I get to be the tiebreaker on this one.

And then we will get to argue about why we would pick what we picked. I would rather Japan Airlines join a transferable points currency. So that is what I vote for. I'm curious, Sujatha, why was that your answer as well?

Dr. Sujatha: Yeah, so this is very timely. My I have a 10 year old daughter who his entire life is 2 things, Taylor Swift and skincare. So the Taylor Swift dream has been fulfilled. We saw her this summer. But as you can imagine, Japan is the mecca of skincare, right?

So she sees these TikTok videos of these like six-story buildings filled with like makeup and skincare. So for spring break 26, because we're all planned out for 25 already, spring break 26, we finally were like, all right, we'll go to Japan. So I have been working through already, you know, probably we'll book it exactly a year in advance of the last month or 2, I've been getting a feel for these seats, how we're going to do this. There is a direct flight from San Diego, but they only released 2 seats. We have to go to LA.

It's a big mess. And I am having to look at every transfer partner. And we are very much like book it open because we're able to book a year. We don't have to play around waiting for stuff to open up. And so Cathay Pacific is really kind of the easiest way for me to get 3 seats to are going to be business one's going to be first, hopefully.

And every time I'm looking through all these partners, I'm kind of like, God, I wish I could just send these points to Jal. So, you know, my answer may change 2 years from now. But right now, since I'm in the thick of trying to put this Japan trip together for, you know, a year and a half from now, it would just make life a lot easier to be able to transfer these points directly. It's very situational right now.

Devon: Very situational right now. Yes. All of these, I think, answers are situational based on, you know, what are your upcoming travel priorities? What matters most to you in terms of what you value in travel, which is, like I said, why this is all made up, because it's just 5 people who love talking about these things, basically saying, this is what would make the most positive impact on my life, or people who, you know, travel or think about points the way I do. I'm curious to hear from Team Lufthansa.

Kelly or Kevin, why would one of you most prefer that Lufthansa become a transfer partner of one of the transferable points currencies? Oh, I'm 

Kelly:I said JAL. Sorry. 

Devon:Oh, I'm sorry,I was totally missing out on that.

Kelly: That one. No, no, no. But can I weigh in? Just having gotten into the Miles and More program, I found them rather easy to accumulate. And GAL is still really hard. And the only redemption I've ever made through JAL was Emirates First Class. And that's when you could transfer SPG points for a really, really nice ratio.

Now, you know, Marriott's not as good, but that's how we did it. And I've looked for ways to try and earn those points and even opening their credit cards. They're just not a good way to accumulate a lot of those points. So to me, that program is very, very closed off as compared to miles and more, which now that I've gotten into has been rather easy to accumulate those.

Devon: All right, I agree with you. So sorry about that 1. Kevin and Andrea were on team Lufthansa. Kevin, why did you vote for Lufthansa? And does it have anything to do with the fact that you're based in Switzerland?

Kevin: No, actually, but just as a quick hot tip for people who are interested in earning JAL points, if you book a flight on ZipAir, which is an incredible discount way to get to Japan, you can convert your Zip Air points to JAL points. So hot tip for those that want to earn more JAL points. The reason I said Lufthansa just super quickly is 2 things. So 1, everyone said JAL with actually an imagined idea of what your ratio would look like. There is no data whatsoever.

So if I said, hey, you can transfer points from Amex to JAL, but a redemption is gonna be 500, 000 points. Does your answer change? So again, everyone created a hypothetical transfer scenario and a hypothetical redemption scenario when they made their answer. So for me, I know Lufthansa, and I know what that looks like, and I know what that is. And so that's why I think I tend to skew towards Lufthansa, I know the benefit I can get from it.

The second thing is the deals that you can get through Lufthansa. So again, 1, you can book Lufthansa first throughout the entire year with the Lufthansa program. And after the Avianca gutting of the Lufthansa option, that is now one of the best ways to book it. The second, and I've talked about this a lot, and I'm just going to leave it at this, 55, 000-point round-trip business class ticket to Europe in business. 55, 000 points. That's it. Monthly. Tons of locations.

Devon: Done. So the case is just closed for you. And I think you make a valid point that we did, I mean, the questions are made up, but a lot of our answers are made up too. You're right, there are a lot of assumptions where we are saying, thinking that, okay, theoretically, like you said, if I can transfer my points over to JL, we're all making up, okay, well, what is a quote unquote, reasonable economy or reasonable business class award redemption, as long as that stays the same to what we kind of see across other programs? You know, where would we find value there?

But Andrea, what did you want to say about this question?

Dr. Andrea: So my answer was also very situational in that I follow an influencer called points and miles doc, who just took list Hansa first, and now It's definitely on my wish list. Totally valid answer.

Kelly: Totally fair. And I raise my hand because in light of that still, the JAL thing was not hypothetical when they still have an award chart. And I still look at their awards longingly. I don't know why I do that to myself, but it's a fun place to search just to see. So I would just counter that it was not completely hypothetical in my answer.

Devon: Well, brilliant. I've done a lot more research about awards through Japan Airlines than I have, so I'm glad that we have someone who actually came super prepared to today's call, even though they didn't know what they were going to get asked. Now we're going to move into another lightning round question, And this one has to do with some rules, rules that we are all familiar with that govern what credit cards we're eligible for, in what order, and the things that can sometimes be obstacles to us getting approved for more credit cards. So this is gonna be an open question for everyone. Andrea, I'm actually gonna start with you in your answer for this.

So would you rather there be no Chase 524 rule at all or no Amex once per lifetime rule? Amex once per lifetime. Okay, we might hear more about that in a second. Kelly, what's your vote? 

Kelly: Ace.

Devon: Ooh, okay. Sujatha?

Dr. Sujatha: I'm Amex as well.

Devon: All right. And Kevin?

Kevin: Amex with a star. What's the star? What's the caveat? That the unofficial rule of 7 years, and you can reopen the cards, is either official or unofficial.

Devon: Okay, wait, say more about that for people who maybe haven't learned that much about some of these nuances yet.

Kevin: Yeah, so Amex has lifetime languages. So when you open up an Amex card it says basically you will only be eligible for this bonus once in your lifetime. Again, that excludes all of the promotional offers or all of the no lifetime language offers. But, there is a lot of concrete, so it's more than anecdotal evidence, that roughly every 7 years, Amex kind of purges their database of when you open cards. And so you can open the same card even with lifetime language after about 5 to 7 years.

Devon: All right, that's fair. Let's hear from the Chase folks. For those of you, the one of you who said that you want to get rid of the Chase 524 rule, Tell me why.

Kelly: Well, I feel like the Amex no lifetime language is just not enforced. That they're constantly putting out offers that don't have lifetime language. So I almost feel like it's not a barrier at all. Whereas Chase 524 is actually a barrier, and they are pretty good about denying you, not all the time, but most of the time, if you are 524. So I feel like it's how those rules are enforced.

Amex is hardly enforced, which is why Kevin, I think, put the star there, and then Chase is more likely to be enforced.

Devon: See, this is so interesting because I do think that this is probably very kind of situational and person-dependent because, like I kind of mentioned before, my experience is that I don't get targeted for Amex No Lifetime offers almost ever, especially compared to what I hear other people reporting, other people having access to. 

And so just for me as 1 single data point, I feel very much like I don't have access to signing up for very many membership rewards points, earning cards, and at least not, I guess, on my own kind of decision tree. I can't just wake up tomorrow and say, I want to get an Amex Business Platinum card because I already hold 1, or I want to get approved for an Amex personal gold card because I already have 1. 

So I feel like with the no lifetime language rule, I'm at the mercy of Amex and whatever strange algorithmic process they have deeming me worthy of receiving a no lifetime offer. And I just have not gotten any of those.

I mean, in years, literally years. And so I feel more constrained in terms of getting approved for the membership rewards points earning cards from Amex than I do even with the Chase 524 rule, which I also don't love. I think I just feel less constrained by that rule. I think that it has a little bit more flexibility. You know, for a long time, most business cards that you applied for from Chase or from other issuers didn't add to your 524 score.

So, you know, you could kind of skirt around and underneath 524 if you were really deliberate, which I tend to have managed to have done, even though I also have accumulated a good number of chase cards. And so I think from my own personal experience, I feel much more hindered by the Amex once per lifetime rule than I do by the Chase rule. Okay, I have sort of a related follow-up. Would you rather question about Chase and Amex? And this is, and Sujatha, I will come to you first.

Would you rather be at Chase 424, so have your Chase status be 424 forever, or be an Amex pop-up jail for 3 years?

Dr. Sujatha: I think I'm going to go with 424. You sound really enthusiastic about that answer. Amex pop-up jail would be devastating.

Devon: Okay, we're going to hear more about that in a second.

Dr. Sujatha: We're not there yet. I have a feeling I, you know, we're not there yet. But yeah, AMEX pop up gel would be very, very difficult for us because we open a lot of animal offers. I mean, we basically open them every 3 months as alternating between my husband and myself. So Chase, and this is just sort of my personal experience, my limit is never being above 524 for Chase.

I mean, I'm above 524, but the reason I let myself get there is they're just not going to give me more credit. I mean, I've opened so many Chase cards in the last 2 years that I'm not hitting 524 limits. I'm hitting credit limit issues and they're just like, we're not giving you more cards. So I actually closed 4 inks this year. And I purposely reduced, and this is very controversial, I am not giving this advice to anybody, but I had a very specific goal in mind, which is why I did this, I actually purposely reduced credit limits on my other cards.

And my Freedom Flex had like a $20, 000 limit. I don't need that. Specifically because I wanted to open the BA card. And I needed a very high credit limit on the VA card because I want that travel together ticket where you basically get a free ticket if you spend $30, 000 on that credit card. So I needed a pretty high limit on that credit card.

And that was actually one of the 8 cards I just got approved for. But I mean, I have gotten probably 3 or 4 denials this year for Chase cards with 2 to 3 recons per card. And then I knew that was not going to happen. And I was below 524 when that happened. So The 524 rule for me is not the barrier for Chase.

It's just, we have just reached the limit of number of cards they're gonna give us and credit limits. So that for me, I'm kind of like, you know what? I move on from Chase. It's not a big deal. And there's just not other, until companion pass next year, there really isn't any more chase cards I need. So I'm okay kind of giving up Chase for a year. Amex is a very, very large point for us.

Devon: Okay, I'm curious to see who else is going to fall on the same side of the line as you. Kelly, what do you think? Would you rather be at Chase 424 forever or be an Amex pop-up jail for 3 years?

Kelly: Oh, definitely 424 since I live there all the time or over. I'm comfortable there.

Devon: You're very comfortable at 424. Very comfortable there, yeah. Andrea, what about you?

Dr. Andrea: My answer is also 424. I'm in Sujatha's boat. Same situation of I use the ink cards for our actual business spend, which is mid 5 figures a month, And they're not very excited about extending me additional credit. And so I usually get denied, even at I'm currently at 324.

Devon: Kevin, what about you chase for 24?

Kevin: I’m also Amex Pop up jail for 200, Devon. 

Devon: Tell us why.

Kevin: Again, it comes into the the timeframe, right? So if you're looking at this as not just what am I gonna do this year and what am I gonna do for the next you know 12-24 months I'm looking at what am I going to do for the next 30 years. And so you said chase 524 forever. So that's for the rest of my life. So let's just call it 40 years versus I'm being an Amex pop-up jail for 3 years.

Once I'm out of Amex pop-up jail, I'm good to go again. And so that's 37 years of not being an Amex pop-up jail versus 3 years of being an Amex pop-up jail.

Devon: I love the way that you analyze these questions and look at it. You know, again, I think there's so many factors that go into this. But wait, you would only be 524 or 624 for 24 months.

Dr. Andrea: So you could open it doesn't change cards. And then you would drop back to 524 in 24 months.

Dr. Sujatha: I think the point though, is that you don't, right? You basically no matter what you open or what you close or what drops off, you magically stay at 424.

Devon: Yes, that is the made up portion of this hypothetical question that you must take into consideration that nobody will ever have to think about again after they finish listening to this episode because that's never going to be a real life scenario. But I do like kind of looking at these 2 different, you know, which one would be more painful for you types of questions. And I actually fall on the same side as the majority on this one. 

I would rather be at Chase 424 forever, because again, I feel like there's a little bit more wiggle room there, but that's also, I think, impacted by the fact that I have a lot of chase cards already. I think this is a kind of a different question, a different problem to analyze if you're somebody who still wants to be able to get approved for 458 in Sujatha's case, you know, chase cards within a year long period.

So I think because I already hold the majority of the chase cards I really want, the impact of being at 424 even potentially forever doesn't feel, you know, quite as hard to me as the kind of inability to get any Amex cards whatsoever for 3 years, although functionally, I can't get any Amex membership rewards points or any cards anyway, because I have all of them and they won't give me any no lifetime offers. 

So it's kind of a moot point in my case, but I'm interested and always very fascinated to hear how you all would approach this. All right, next lightning round question. Kelly, I'm going to start with you this time. Would you rather only be able to redeem points for flights or only for hotels? You can only pick one or the other.

Kelly: Oh, flights 100%.

Devon: All right, Kevin, what about you? Flights. Sujatha? Same. Andrea?

Dr. Andrea: Same.

Devon: All right, same for me. So this was a terrible question, because I was hoping that somebody would actually argue for using their points only for hotels. But I wonder if our answer is kind of the same for the same reason. So let me ask you a little bit of a follow-up question. 

As much as I get just truly enormous value out of specifically Chase points for my Hyatt Hotel stays, and I would be devastated if I could no longer use Chase points whatsoever for Hyatt stays, I do personally think that, especially from transferable points, the value that I get redeeming for specifically long-haul international premium cabin flights is what makes the value of transferable points even more for me, using them flights versus hotels.

And I'm curious if we're all using our transferable points in the same way. If everybody answered, they would rather have transferable points to use for flights, because you're also specifically thinking about the value that you get for international premium long haul cabiners. Is there any other factor that went into that decision for anybody? Anyone can jump in on this one, Kelly.

Kelly: Yeah, I think it's, cause there are some influencers who say, hey, you can always find a cheap flight somewhere, so you should be using your points for hotels. And I think it just comes down to what your motivations are and also what your spend, essentially profile, is like when you go on vacation. 

And some of the things we've been focusing on are not just long-haul business class flights or premium seats so that we're comfortable, but also when we get to a location, maybe spending in a more local way or staying in a boutique location, or going on safari, which these are things you're not going to be able to redeem points for. So I think it not only comes down to value, but it also comes down to motivation.

Devon: Yeah, fantastic points.

Kevin: Sorry, Bill. I had to drop it.

Dr. Sujatha: Yeah, I know. I was going to say, you know, this, what I kind of see over and over in the Facebook group is the difficulty in people kind of taking the step to booking these flights and hotel redemptions are incredibly easy, right? Well, the minute you transfer to HIAT once, you're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm going to do that. Everyone gets that right away. Like this is not a difficult thing to do.

Flight redemptions are really tough. I mean, there is so much work put in like looking and checking and guarding your reservations, but there's a very high, I think, jump between. There's just a lot of intimidation. And so I think those of us that do this a lot, we pick flights because we've learned how to do this. And these questions come up all the time where, Why am I paying $700 for a business platinum for 250, 000 points?

That's a huge annual fee. All of us jump in and say, 250, 000 points is 5 business class Air France tickets to Europe. People are like, oh, I didn't even realize that that was the math there. And so I think all of us that sort of know how to redeem are gonna answer flights. People who are really are not comfortable with the flight portion are gonna answer hotels because it's just so much easier.

And so they don't realize the value here is learning how to redeem. There's so much talk in our group, I think, about the subs and the cards and I open this and I open that and I have a million miles and then, you know, they've got to be able to redeem. And So that part of it is a huge leap, I think, for a lot of people because it's a lot of work.

Devon: Yeah, completely valid point. Kevin, what were you going to add to that?

Kevin: So I mean, we've kind of touched on the value aspect of it. I mean, again, a lot of this comes down to personal situations sometimes as well. I have a family of 6, so that's 6 flights or 2 hotel rooms. So again, 6 is bigger than 2, and the 2 is providing the more value. So that, you know, kind of swings it that way.

The other thing I was thinking about is, you know, from a status perspective, Since a lot of times I personally book business class flights or luxury hotels, when I book my business class flight, it doesn't matter what status I have. I'm getting into the lounge, I'm getting a premium seat, I'm getting, you know, the 5 star treatment. And so that's why I'd rather use the points, and it's also part of why I don't chase status with airlines, because I'm going to get status for my redemption inherently. 

And so that's why with the hotels, I'd rather not use them for that, because my status can kind of fill in the gaps, even if I had to do cash stays, it would be pretty easy to get, you know, 60 nights through credit card spend or through category 1, you know, mattress runs, if you will, to get my hotel status that would then make that more valuable versus, you know, you can't really use points to get status at hotels. Again, that's an oversimplification, but that's another just layer that I thought about.

Devon: Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. And, you know, I think about kind of how I like to use points, not just where can someone theoretically get the most value from them, but just, what do I like to do? Where do I like to travel? How do I like to travel? 

But I imagine that if I was in a phase or season of my life where, you know, I wanted to travel primarily domestically, And from where I'm based in the country, I can get basically anywhere else in the continental U.S. On an economy flight in 5 hours or less, right? And for me, that's kind of the threshold. Like, I can kind of tolerate a lot of domestic economy airlines for up to 5 hours. 

So, You know, I think for me, the value of points specifically for flights, if one of my main goals was to travel extensively domestically, I probably wouldn't be as enthusiastic about a lot of, you know, the transferable points currencies and certainly, you know, the international airline miles that I have. And I think that from that perspective, there's probably an enormous amount of value that could be had from points using them predominantly for hotel stays, where, again, even in the continental US, it seems like the cash cost of hotel stays has just skyrocketed.

I don't tend to spend a lot of cash on domestic hotels, because again, I don't travel a ton domestically and I do use a lot of my points for those, but I think just kind of regular domestic travel, especially if you do have a family the size where you might need to get more than one room for just a regular vacation. The cash cost of hotel stays just seems really astronomical to me recently. So I think, again, depending on what your travel patterns and your preferences are, there is an argument to be made for using a lot of your points for hotel stays. But luckily, none of us is actually going to be forced to decide to only use our points for hotel stays or flights and we still do have all of those options available to us. Now another direction moving here, totally theoretical hypothetical question, is going to be about airport lounge access.

So, Andrea, I'm going to come to you first. The next question is, would you rather have lounge access at every airport in the United States? So, you can just access any airport lounge whenever you travel in the United States or global access to any international airport lounge but only 4 visits a year for international lounges versus unlimited domestic lounge access?

Dr. Andrea: This would be unlimited domestic lounge access because usually we're booking business class flights with points for international travel and that's getting lounge access anyway.

Devon: What if there was no?

Dr. Andrea: I'm cheating.

Devon: I know. Let's bring it back to where you otherwise you're not going to get lounge access period. There's no credit cards that give lounge access doesn't come with your business class award flights. You just have to pick domestic lounge access kind of all the time, or international lounge access, but only 4 times a year.

Dr. Andrea: We travel more frequently domestically. So I would still answer domestic. But that's a hard answer because my home airport doesn't have a lounge. So that would be a much easier answer if I had a home airport that had a really nice lounge. But just considering anytime we go anywhere domestically, which is more frequent than going internationally, having access to a lounge would be great.

Devon: Sujatha, what do you think?

Dr. Sujatha: I'm going to go with international. We take 3 big international trips a year. So that would suffice. We are domestic flights are either like myself for a conference for like who cares or like visiting my in-laws in Texas. I'm like, frankly, who cares?

We'll set up a gate. These are not like big fancy airports like JFK. So I would go with international.

Devon: Kelly, what do you think?

Kelly: I'd actually go with domestic just because of the number of times we fly domestic. And maybe it sounds really spoiled now, but when we go on an international trip out of LAX, we've like been to the Qantas first class lounge so many times, we're just like, oh, okay, you know, we'll stop in for 5 minutes and then move on with our day. So I think after a while the novelty wears off, but then there's the utility of like when I'm flying domestically, I need to go in, get my coffee, get my water, get a little snack before I go. So the frequency becomes more important.

Devon: Now, Kevin, I know that you are based in Europe right now, but let's pretend that you were based in the United States just so that we're all answering from the same sort of starting point. What would you prefer?

Kevin: So, I also make the assumption that when you say I can get into a lounge, my whole family can get into a lounge, correct?

Devon: That's fair. That can be included in this question.

Kevin: Right. So then it would definitely be the domestic because if you're having to do positioning flights and remember even you're taking international trip your first airport's a domestic airport. So you wouldn't you know in the second scenario you wouldn't be able to get access to a lounge when you're going to your international destination. Most international airports are actually quite well put together. So again, just to use an extreme example, if you go to Singapore Changi Airport and you don't have lounge access, you can still have a pretty good time.

Versus a US airport where if you don't have lounge access, you're probably having a pretty terrible time. So I'll take domestic for that 1.

Devon: Yeah, I actually would agree too and I think it's because when I am traveling domestically, that tends to be the majority of the travel that we've done with our kids. And I think the quality of life measure of being able to be in a lounge, again, at a domestic airport when you're trying to feed and entertain and just have a little bit of space to spread out for especially younger kids or maybe just kids with my kids temperament. It is just exponentially much more comfortable to be able to have lounge access. 

Whereas I agree, I think a lot of international airports, while it is amazing to be able to access their lounges if you're flying on an award premium cabin award flight, a lot of international airlines or international airports are just more comfortable to walk through to be entertained in than a lot of what we have to offer here in domestic United States. So I would pick that one as well.

Okay, this is going to be our very last would you rather question that we're gonna do in our lightning round before we wrap up today. Who haven't I started with recently? Kelly, I think I'll come to you first for this one. Maybe it's also because I know...

Kevin: I think we should force Devon to answer first for this last one.

Devon: 0h, but I already know what the question is, so this one isn't going to be, none of them, obviously, are going to be that surprising to me. But I'm happy to answer this one. 

And actually, the answer may surprise you. So, Kelly and I have joked before about how, even though she is brilliant and an absolute genius when it comes to points and miles, the one thing that she consistently is mistaken about is that she prefers aisle seats over window seats, which apparently is a personal preference, and that is fine. We're all for, you know, respecting everybody's values and personal preferences on this podcast, except for when it comes to the best seats to sit in on an airline.

So I wanted to add a little bit of a twist to the question of the window versus aisle versus just Where would you rather sit on an airplane? So Kelly, I'm going to come to you first. You've got to listen to the whole thing. I apologize if the question is very convoluted, so you can repeat it if you need to. Would you rather be in a window seat in a business class cabin with lie-flat seats but a two-by-two configuration?

So would you rather be in the window seat, lie-flat business class in a 2 by 2 configuration, but your seatmate is a stranger you don't know, who is man spreading into your footwell and is eating smelly food, or would you rather be in economy with a whole road to yourself for a nine-hour flight?

Kelly: Oh, come on. No, 9 hours, I've got to lie down, even though there may be somebody blocking me in. But I've learned that the reason why I like aisle seats is because I'm an Enneagram 8, and apparently Enneagram eights do not like to be controlled in any way, and we need full autonomy and freedom. 

So that's why I like an aisle seat. But for 9 hours, I got to lay down and the 3 row across an economy is not going to do it for me. And I wear a mask and I can't smell very well anyway, so.

Devon: You know what I actually maybe should have included an already very long question that you have your full sense of smell, because I also... Sorry, Kevin, this may actually be the one question that is a little more medically related. 

I lost a lot of my sense of smell through the process of doing anatomy lab and then my pathology residency, where I inhaled so much formalin that I think I probably have completely evaporated, you know, half the structures, my nasal anatomy and my olfactory system in my brain. So I cannot smell a tremendous amount anymore. But I guess we can leave that caveat out of this question.

Sujatha, what would you rather do?

Dr. Sujatha: It's just I can't do 9 hours in economy, even with 3 seeds in a row. I mean, it's just gotten to the point where I just can't do it. I mean, I will take the business class seat.

Devon: All right, Andrea, where are you sitting?

Dr. Andrea: Okay, and I'm assuming that we can't have the sky couch in this scenario, like where we can make it into a lie-flat seat. Like

Devon: if I can make it into a live flat seat in the sort of traditional way where you just scoot up all the armrests

Dr. Andrea: So not like the padding of the sky couch.

Devon: No Andrea, you're not getting a sky couch in this scenario

Dr. Andrea: Okay, then I don't have a problem tapping on a shoulder and asking a manspreader to man connect his legs better. And I would take the business class seat.

Kevin: Kevin, what about you? Yeah, my follow up question is, am I allowed to retaliate against the manspreader splainer? Because if so, it becomes a very easy answer. And the second follow up is, am I on KLM and am I getting a small house?

Devon: Oh, because that would really fundamentally impact your answer. The presence or absence of being able to walk away with a delved house is going to

Kevin: be surprised how much that impacts my decision-making process.

Devon: You know, I'm not surprised. I've never flown KLM and I desperately want one of those little houses. And so it may impact mine. But again, I guess I will be like, truthfully and honestly, this will show you so much about my personality as if you already didn't know that I would actually rather spend 9 hours in an economy row by myself than either. Kelly, as much as you say that you don't like to be boxed in and that's why you like the aisle seat, I do not like to be boxed into a two-by-two.

Like, I'm a window seat person, but I do not like the two-by-two configurations where you have to sit next to a stranger because not only, as most of you who listen to this podcast do know that I'm a hermetic recluse and social interaction is incredibly challenging for me. So not only will I sit there for 9 hours and not ask someone to move so that I can go use the bathroom? I would rather go into kidney failure than actually have to, you know, speak to a stranger. But then when you add on, they're also in my space. That, to me, is basically human existential hell.

Either having to go to Disneyland or having a stranger potentially make physical contact with me, I'm out. So I will gladly spend 9 hours just in my own little economy, bro. I'm sure that every single joint in my body would hurt after that, but I would have to go for that. So this is honestly why when I fly international premium business class, all thanks to points, I cannot fly on those quote unquote older business class configurations that are 2 by 3 by 2 or you know 2 by 2 by 2 because I just can't be pinned in by a stranger. I know it only end poorly for me.

So thank you all for adding in your thoughts, your opinions about that question and all of our would you rather questions today. I really appreciate the fact that the 4 of you made the time where across many, many different time zones, you were willing to figure out a time for us all to come together today. As always, I enjoy your company so much. I enjoy hearing about how you think about points and miles, even how you think your way through completely theoretical made up questions that will probably never be a reality for any of us. But Andrea, Sujatha, Kelly, Kevin, thank you for joining me today.

This was such a fun conversation and I just appreciate all of your time so much. All right, everyone, the podcast episode was supposed to end here, but after we turned the recording off, Kelly, Kevin, Sujatha, Andrea and I kept talking behind the scenes and both Kevin and Andrea had a would you rather question scenario of their own that they wanted to pose to the group. 

And so we decided to turn the microphones and turn the recording back on to capture that conversation. So I'm including it here for you all to continue to enjoy from. So please enjoy this addendum to our Would You Rather podcast conversation.

Okay, Kevin, what is your would-you-rather question?

Kevin: Okay, so in fairness of turning the tables a little bit, my would-you-rather question is there is a very interesting opportunity that exists now. So when you go and you book a Hyatt stay, you can earn 5x points on any cash portion, and you can earn 4x points by using the Hyatt credit card. 

Now the Wells Fargo autographed journey card earns 4x on hotel stays which is the exact same amount. So would you rather pay your cash bill with the World of Hyatt card or earn the flexible points with the Wells Fargo Journey card, knowing that there are slightly less transfer partners than the other flexible points currencies?

Devon: Okay, so totally just off the cuff, what is my answer as someone who has literally spent maybe 4 seconds actually looking into the Wells Fargo card and knows almost nothing about that currency whatsoever? I would go with earning the Hyatt points. And I think that's because I use Hyatt points so much. So for me, Hyatt points, they're not transferable. I can't scoot them over to Air France or, you know, British Airways or any of these other things, but I use Hyatt points at least the last 2 years.

I have burned through them exponentially faster than any other points currency. So again, I think this is such a personal preference where how would I answer based on the math? Probably not that way. How would I answer based on the way that I use points and I value points and that I am constantly, desperately grasping for as many high points as I possibly can get? I pick the high points personally, but tell me where I'm wrong.

Dr. Andrea: My answer is going to depend on whether or not I'm working towards globalist or not. If I'm at a point in the year where I've already achieved globalist for the next year, then I would use the Wells Fargo card. If I'm still working for globalist, then I would put it on the Hyatt card.

Dr. Sujatha: Yeah, I would agree with that. The Wells Fargo card is actually a very interesting card. It's on my launchpad because it transfers to where I transfer. I don't need, you know, Turkish miles anytime soon. So like, does it transfer?

I don't think it transfers to Turkish, but I mean, it transfers to the Air France and Avios are what we use. So it transfers to both. The globalist question is a good 1. I mean, I have plenty of other spend to put on my Hyatt cards. So transferable points to me is probably going to win most of the time simply because there are other ways for me to earn those Hyatt points as opposed to earning them on Hyatt stays.

Devon: But paid Hyatt stays on a Hyatt credit card is, right? We're talking about something different like that versus would you just put, you know, hotel spend on a Wells Fargo card? I pay

Dr. Sujatha: for a lot of Hyatt stays though.

Kelly: I mean... Yes, Sujatha, I was going to say the same thing. I don't pay for... I can't remember the last Hyatt stay I actually

Devon: paid for.

Kevin: So

Kelly: I think my spend with them is really low and I have not been strategic about this and I put my, all my hotel stays on my Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Devon: I just realized the extent to which my answer was biased by the fact that Andrea and I hosted a conference at a Hyatt property this year, where the entire cost of the conference was Hyatt spend. So for me, I was like, oh my gosh, the difference in points earning using a Hyatt credit card. I acknowledge that most folks are not hosting an event at a Hyatt property on a yearly basis. I will probably not be hosting an event at a Hyatt property on an every year basis either. But I think that that's a really great point.

Like how much cash spend are you actually having at Hyatt if you are someone who's predominantly using their chase points or their belt points or the Hyatt points for Hyatt stays? It's a great question, Kevin. What is your answer?

Kevin: So again, you could get to a lot of caveats that's like, you're not working towards globalist status, all your stays are always cash stays, right? So you could put in place some things, and I think some people would change their answers based on what you put in for those. 

But at the end of the day, I mean, if you are paying cash stays, and because you're able to earn the Hyatt points, I would probably still use the Hyatt card, but it mostly comes back to the fact that Wells Fargo doesn't have any unique transfer partners that I can't get with some of my other cards. Versus the Hyatt points, as we've already said, there's 2 transfer partners. 1 doesn't work for most people and 1 has some limitations on it.

So to earn those higher points, they actually have higher value than the Wells Fargo points, but it's because of the transfer. Like if Wells Fargo, like all of a sudden had like miles and more as a transfer partner, then that's like a different conversation. Cause I can't get that anywhere else.

Devon: Yeah, I completely agree with what you said there. Totally.

Dr. Andrea: Okay. I have a question. It's not a would you rather, but it's a very simple answer. 1 number. Okay.

If you could have a cash-back earning card, and you get to pick the cash-back, like 6% cash-back, 7%, 3% 100% cash-back, What percent cash-back earning card would make you switch from putting your spend on a points and miles earning card of any kind to using a cash-back only card? 

Devon: And there's no limit? I mean, like legitimate, we could say like 80%...

Dr. Andrea: Like, where is your threshold? Like I would be…

Kevin: What's the minimum that you would price? 

Devon : Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I was like, I think we would all easily do that.

Dr. Andrea: No, no, no, where's your threshold where you would transition to cash-back?

Devon: Oh, such a good question. Okay, so I was thinking about 100% over here. 

Kevin: No, no, 10%. 

Devon: Oh, yours is 10%. I would actually, I would sit down and I would do the math because this is such a critical question where I have enough data that I can dig into and find to say, okay, exactly what does my spend look like across all my personal spend, all my business spend.

Once I actually sit down and look at all my accounts, I will have a very good idea of how many points did I earn for my patterns of spend for, you know, whatever, a calendar year basis. And I also, at this point, have a pretty good idea of how much can I expect to get in value out of those points? For me, it would be a straight numbers game. 

Like if I had a cash-back card that I could reliably count on to give me, again, over time reliably, more value than what I feel like I can usually get from all my current spend and all my current points redeeming, I would use a cash-back card. The interesting thing to me about that question, and again, I would have to do the math and actually find out the number, maybe I will, because now I'm curious.

I'm like, what would that number have to be? Would it have to be like 13.5%? I'm actually not sure. I think it would have to be a pretty high number. But I actually think then, for me personally, imagining this question, the next question is, oh, would that though fundamentally change the way I travel?

Like if we're then looking at that apples to apples comparison of, you know, right now I have all these points, which I argue is a form of currency, but it's not cash. Right? Like I am not using my points. I don't think they're as flexible as cash. I don't think they are, honestly, as valuable as cash.

So if we were to do that math, and let me just pretend it is going to be like a 13% cash-back card, but I look at that finite then number, that amount of money that I am saving cash-back on all my expenses, I actually don't think I would choose to spend that number on travel every single year. I would probably, with a cash equivalent, be like, oh, I'm going to start paying down more of my mortgage, or I'm going to put that in a taxable account, or I'm going to put it somewhere else. 

I think I would use that cash as I currently do use cash. I think I probably would just, I can't imagine I wouldn't travel, but I can't imagine I would use that cash equivalent and book $40, 000 round trip business class flights for my family from here to wherever. Like I think that would be so much more challenging for me.

Okay, now I'm super curious to hear how everybody else would answer this question.

Kevin: Would you change your travel is the key point. That is the key point.

Dr. Sujatha: This is a psychology question, right? This is the psychology of money versus points where points have a value for a particular thing while cash, of course, you use for everything. I think that this is exactly the point. I mean, there is no way we would spend $50,000 on a vacation. That cash that we got back with a 13% credit card would just not be earmarked for travel.

We would end up... We probably wouldn't travel less. We would just travel more poorly. We would not be remote. We'd be once again looking on Google flights for the cheapest flight.

And we just psychologically would not be able to say, oh, I got $8, 000 cash-back. I'm paying $8, 000 for a single business class ticket. We just physically could not do it. 

Devon: Yeah, and I think for me, kind of one of the big arguments is kind of that value proposition. Like when I look at just the landscape right now, there are cash-back cards, clearly, right? And there are actually some compelling cash-back cards, 2% on everything, you know, cards that get more than 2% on certain things. 

And for me right now, it is so much easier for me to do the thing I do with points because at that current cash-back level, again, there's such a big difference between the value of travel I can redeem my points for with that same exact amount of spend, that that's not a hard decision for me. You know, and I'm just gonna totally make up a number now, but for me right now, it's sort of that aspect of, would you rather have $10, 000 in cash to do whatever you want, or $100, 000 in redeemed travel.

Like to me, that difference is so big currently that I don't feel like I'm sacrificing a ton in terms of not using cash-back cards. But if we're looking at the scenario where that discrepancy no longer exists, right? Where you're getting enough cash-back that's sort of equivalent to the value that I'm otherwise using my points for, that is a very, very different story. Kelly, where do you stand on this?

Kelly: Yeah, I think if you look at just the numbers, I'm thinking about my spreadsheet And across the board, my cents per point redemption through every program not separated out by transferable currencies is about 4.6 cents per point. 

So if you think, okay, well, I'm getting 2 points per dollar on all spend at a baseline, that cash-back would have to be a minimum of over 9.5%. So it would have to be a minimum of 10% cash-back, knowing that it's still going to be undercutting. 

So then if you think, oh, I'm optimizing 3 and 4 times bonus categories, now you're getting up into 12%, 15% cash-back. So I think it's not necessarily a math question for us, but this is a real question for people who are starting out, or especially those who are right out of training and really do need a lot of cash on hand, that the cash-back might be better for them if they're just getting started in that.

And that's totally OK. But when you start to get into the travel component, I think the value that you get is going to be so much higher that that cash-back can't match it. And you would change your travel styles if you're already to this level.

Dr. Sujatha: There's also a lot more we're willing to put up in our 20s, right? You don't have kids, you kind of buy the cheapest economy flight to Thailand and, you know, stay in a hostel. And so how many points do you really need for that, right? You open up one card and I mean, the problem is, is there a serious, serious scope creep as you get older and have children and your back hurts and you hit 50. There's a lot less you're willing to put up with. So it [crosstalk].

Kevin: I'll say, sorry, my math actually changed as I listened to this conversation. The initial math that I had in my head was, you know, what is a good redemption? It's, you know, 10 cents per point, so let me benchmark 10%. But then I think, Devon, you triggered something, which is, you know, let's anchor on Sutrata's 50, 000 point vacation. So if you get 10% back, you're getting 5, 000 back, so you're still spending $45, 000 out of pocket.

So would you actually spend $45, 000 out of pocket, right? And the answer to that is probably no. So, but you may spend 10, 15, even 20, 000, let's call it, out of pocket, maybe. Again, Devon, no, but I wouldn't either, but like maybe. And so then it's your cash-back that you would need to flip is not 10% to get the same experience.

It would need to be more like, you know, 50, 60, 70%.

Devon: And that's my argument. Exactly. Right. Like, yes, 100%. And as far as I know, again, I have no insider information.

I wish people would send me insider information, but I'm not aware of any 50% cash-back cards that are being floated by any of these, you know, banking institutions right now. But I'm pretty sure I would jump on that cash-back card and I would become a complete cash-back, you know, fan in that case, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to come down the pipeline. Andrea, did you actually run the numbers for yourself since you've been thinking about this question? Did you do a full analysis?

Dr. Andrea: I haven't actually run the numbers, but I know that my earn rate is, you know, I'm just kind of averaging probably at like 3.5. And my average redemption rate is a little over 6. And so just kind of like very basic, it would need to be an over 20% cash-back card.

Devon: Yeah, that tracks for me. So again, I think in terms of doing these fun kind of thought experiments and thought exercises, you know, where would you actually cross over your own personal threshold where you would dramatically change, you know, your decision making or the way that you handle points or what you would do? 

I think sounds like for most of us, that number is so unbelievably high that it's never actually going to be a reality. But all right, thank you guys so much for adding in those sort of extra behind the scenes questions. And thank you so much for sharing all of your points and miles knowledge with everybody once again.

I love you and appreciate you all and I hope we can do this again maybe in another year and come up with all sorts of new scenarios that we can play around with depending on how much things have changed in points and miles between now and then. Have a fantastic week, everybody.

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Point Me to First Class. If you want more tips on turning your expenses into travel, visit pointmetofirstclass.com to learn more. See you next week.