81. Earning Points for Real Estate Transactions: The Inside Scoop with RBN Founder Dr. Kipp Lassetter

Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel the world. I'm your host, Devon Gimbel, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest untapped asset if you know how to leverage them. Ready to dive into the world of credit card points and miles so you can travel more, travel better, and travel often? Let's get started.

Welcome back to the podcast, everybody. Now, when it comes to the game of earning points for the money that we spend, I believe two things. Number one, our expenses are assets if we know how to leverage them and turn them into points-earning opportunities. Our largest expenses are potentially our biggest points-earning opportunities if we can take advantage of them. 

Now this year happens to mark the 10-year anniversary of my buying my first, only, and current home. But it also marks the 10-year anniversary of my having earned zero points on the single largest purchase that I have ever made. That is very sad for me, but the same thing doesn't have to happen for you. 

That's because an innovative program, the RBN Rewards Program, allows consumers to earn points on the purchase and sale of real estate. For many of us, our homes are the most expensive purchase that we will ever make. So the potential impact of turning this purchase into a points-earning opportunity is enormous. That's exactly where RBN comes in.

Now, I first talked about this program on the podcast back on episode number 16 with doctors Leslie Chen and Emma Cabral who talked about their experiences earning over a million points through the RBN Program on the purchase of their homes. 

Now around the same time that that episode aired, RBN announced a shift in their Rewards Program from partnering with American Express to creating their own Rewards Points Program. So to talk about that change, how the RBN Rewards Program works for consumers, and the unique points opportunities available for the purchase and sale of real estate, I've invited RBN co-founder and CEO, Dr. Kipp Lassetter to the podcast today. 

Dr. Lassetter is a physician and tech entrepreneur with a distinguished background in emergency medicine and healthcare IT. After a decade in emergency medicine, he transitioned to the business side of healthcare, founding Medicity, a pioneering company in health information exchange, which he successfully led to a major acquisition. 

Currently, Kipp is focused on revolutionizing the real estate industry as the founder of RBN, a startup dedicated to rewarding consumers with valuable rewards points when they buy or sell a home with a top local realtor. Before we dive into today's conversation with Kipp, I also want to take a minute to acknowledge and thank RBN for being a sponsor of the upcoming Point Me To First Class Conference.

Devon: Kipp, thank you so much for joining me here today. I know so many people are interested in learning more about RBN and how they can turn buying or selling a home into a points earning opportunity. I'm so excited to talk more about this program with you.

Kipp: Good morning and thank you, Devon. I'm excited to be here with you and be able to share what we're doing. 

Devon:  Absolutely. So can you just start us at the very beginning? Can you share the story of the founding of RBN and what inspired you to create this program?

Kipp: Well, many times in my life, the best success has come out of a failure. I had a group of very talented folks sitting around a table, and we had just wrapped up a not successful venture. We were sitting around thinking, you know, we don't want to let this group go. Is there anything we can think of that could be amazing to work on? 

In that discussion, it came up, wouldn't it be amazing if you could earn reward points for the largest purchase in most people's life, which is the home? That started the journey. We looked at a lot of regulatory issues. We looked at a lot of feasibility in terms of the economics. 

After what was a few years of working on it, we were able to, we thought, figure it out. We launched it, and we were very fortunate to have our first launch partner being American Express. It was a very successful program with them. In learning and doing that, we actually learned a lot. From that experience, we decided it would be better for our membership if we could launch our own point program with a little more flexibility and try to arrange actually more value in the points in doing so.

Devon: That's incredible. Can you take us back and just kind of walk us through when did you all first have that conversation where this idea came up? What year was that? Then what year were you actually able to launch this program, make it available to consumers? What were some of the biggest challenges that you had to overcome during that time? 

Kipp: Well, there was a lot that's happened, but it was about seven years ago. As I think back on it, it always, whenever you start these ventures, I think if you knew what you're getting into, you probably would reconsider it. But we were persistent, and we looked at a lot of regulatory issues that exist around real estate, which actually has been a pretty dynamic environment lately, as we all may all know.

Then in the middle of all that came this thing called the pandemic, which was a very interesting journey for us and sparked a lot of interest in home buying and people were stuck at home. If they're stuck at home, they wanted to improve their home or change their home. We went through that experience. 

I think right now we're on the cusp of a whole new, exciting journey because we see that it looks very clear to us that interest rates are going to be coming down. We think there's a lot of pent up demand to change homes or buy a home for the first time. We're pretty excited about that coming down the pike right now.

Devon: When you first started this program, I'm curious, how did you identify American Express as your initial partner that you all worked with in terms of the organization that actually supplied or had the points platform that people were able to take advantage of? 

Kipp: Well, I think when most people think reward points, those of us who are older would think about American Express. I had been, I'm embarrassed to say, an American Express cardholders since 1986. Over the course of that time, I had collected a lot of American Express reward points, and I knew that program pretty well. I thought that would be a good place for us to start. 

Devon: We'll talk a little bit further in the episode about what the transition from American Express now to your own RBN rewards points program looks like, what was behind that decision and the different opportunities that affords people who participate in the RBN program. But before we get to that, I wanted to kind of walk through the fundamentals of how RBN works and what people can expect if they do want to participate in this program.

Now, one of the things that is obviously very unique about RBN is that it offers rewards equivalent to the full transaction price of a home sale or purchase through three steps that you all describe as connect, close, and collect. Can you walk us through what each of those steps looks like as a potential consumer?

Kipp: Well, absolutely. I mean, I think the most important part of our program, and it wouldn't work if we didn't have a phenomenal group of participating real estate agents. We've grown to be the largest luxury real estate agent referral service in the US. In doing so, we have approximately about 2,100 participating real estate agents. These aren't just any real estate agents. We look for the highest performing agent that may serve a certain market. 

We believe that if the experience doesn't start with a great real estate agent and end up with a great experience in either selling your home or buying a home, and in many cases both selling and buying, then the rest of the service that we offer won't mean much. So it starts with a great real estate agent referral.

At that point, we meet with you. We talk with you. This is a very person on person experience. It's not an online matching service like many of the dating services. We actually set up a call and talk with the customer and we look at what they're buying, where they're buying, what their budget is, and match them with two or three different agents that we think would be a great fit. They get a chance to interview them. They select an agent. 

Once they have either purchased or sold their home, then at the time of closing, they will be issued the points up to a point for every dollar spent or sold in the home. That exact amount depends on the exact commissions that were negotiated as part of that sale.

Devon: Can you talk a little bit more about that commission structure? I know that things have changed quite significantly in the world of buying and selling real estate, especially recently with some major changes to the commission structure for real estate agents. So how have you seen that impact your business? Or how does that impact people who want to participate in the RBN program? 

Kipp: Well, it really hasn't had a big impact on our business. It's impacted our participating agents more. A lot of it has to do with just notification and explaining what most people already understand, which is it's up to the person selling their home to decide if they want to offer a co-broke fee and what that co-broke fee could be. They're not obligated to offer that co-broke fee. Many times they leave it as negotiable. 

So we haven't seen much change in the actual commission rates, but we're early into the change and we're watching it. We think that ultimately it's not going to have a huge impact in terms of the actual commissions. It's just more about disclosure to the customer of how real estate commissions are paid, who pays them, and the amount that's paid. So now in this new world, if you're going out to buy a home, you, in many markets, they've already been doing this, but you're required really to sign a buyer's agency agreement. 

In that buyer's agency agreement, typically, not always, but typically you'll see that the agent's willing to work for an agreed amount of money. If the commission paid by the seller is short of that, then that may come out of your pocket. We don't see that very often. We haven't seen that very often. That way it protects the buying agent and the selling agent. Many times what we see is the buying agent's fee is negotiated as part of the negotiation of the overall home, either in the sell or purchase. 

Devon: I see. You mentioned that there are approximately 2,100 real estate agents that partner with RBN. I'm curious what the geographic distribution of those agents looks like and are there geographic markets that are more heavily served or less heavily served by RBN such that people in different areas of the country should be aware of the accessibility of this program to them? 

Kipp: Sure. It's really pretty simple. If you did a heat map of the United States for population, that's pretty much a direct overlay of where our agents are located. We're available in all 50 states, including Alaska and Hawaii. We've done many transactions in Hawaii, and we've done a few in Alaska, directly related to probably the population. As I said, we've done transactions in all 50 states, and we are in all major markets.

Devon: So for the consumer, initially when they contact you all and they get paired up with a real estate agent, then they go through what sounds like an otherwise very typical home buying or selling process. That there's nothing fundamentally different about working with RBN than working with an agent who's not affiliated with RBN. Then once the transaction is closed, they receive their RBN rewards points. 

I'm curious to hear a little bit more about this transition away from American Express, who you originally partnered with, to your own RBN rewards program. Can you talk a little bit more about the decision behind that transition? Then also now, what is really unique about the RBN points themselves? 

Kipp: Okay, love to. American Express was always meant to be a limited time opportunity. In doing that, the downside of that is it took a long time and a lot of process to have any marketing opportunity approved. We were really slowed down in the way we could respond to market opportunities because of that partnership, and all of our material had to be approved, etc. 

In doing the shift to our own points, we felt like as we built the program out, that we would be able to offer our members more flexibility and more personal service. We have currently, and I think we're going to talk about it, so we might as well go ahead and talk about it. 

We have three major categories of ways you can use your points. The first is self-serve travel site. The actual infrastructure is the same infrastructure that American Express uses for their travel. If you're one of our participating customers, you would have a login, you go in, and you have a point balance, and you can book your travel. Airline, hotels, rental cars, etc. In that platform, we offer special packages and special opportunities to maximize your points.

If you're looking for something really special, we have a luxury travel advisor, which is a personalized service. We've had some amazing trips planned through that service. I'd love to share a few of those with you. That service involves someone that may have some expertise in what you're trying to do, whether it's a cruise or African safari, or you pretty much limited by your own imagination on what that could be for you. But we look at that as more experiential travel. 

The portal is I know where I want to go. I know where I want to stay. I don't need to really talk to anybody. You can use your points that way. The other one is look, I'm looking for something special. I travel, but I don't travel. I'm going to an area I've never traveled before, and I don't want to waste my time and money on a bad experience. So I want someone that has expertise that can make sure that this trip is going to be very enjoyable and not full of regrets. 

The third category is what we call special requests. That's, look, I don't have any travel coming up in the near future, but I do have something we need to either purchase. If we have a service that if you call us, you essentially get a personalized shopper. They listen to what you're looking for. We have a lot of connections in the business. We have a lot of opportunity to give you a special purchase and use your points doing that. 

We had a professional athlete out of the Dallas area that purchased a home and had a fairly large balance of points well into the seven figures. We helped him buy an engagement ring. So he bought a home. He got engaged. It was a great story for us. We had a lot of fun helping him. 

We had a great connection with a diamond broker. Actually, he said in points, he saved many thousands of dollars in that process. That was a fun example of something we did. We've had people that put down payments on cars. People that have furnished a lot of their home. It's a fun service that we do offer. It's a third way that someone could use their points. 

Devon: Yeah, there's not any other opportunity, at least that I know of or can think of where somebody is going to have sort of the option to leverage their points into really, really bespoke items. So I have so many more questions about that. But I wanted to back up and kind of review each of these three main points redemption options that are available for using RBN points. 

But first, I just wanted to clarify because the program states that you have the opportunity to earn up to essentially one point per dollar of your real estate transaction. So if you buy or sell a home that's a million dollars, you can earn up to 1 million RBN rewards points. Now, what a lot of people are always concerned about is what are the limitations or what are the exceptions that we need to be aware of? 

So I'm curious if there are limitations or a cap on the total number of points you can earn. You mentioned working with an athlete who had a real estate purchase of multiple, probably seven figures. Once people earn these points, do we need to be aware of any expiration or making sure that we use them within a certain time frame? 

Kipp: Well, a lot of questions in that. I'll start in reverse because my memory's bad. I probably don't remember what your first question was. But in terms of expiration, we have a policy of three years. We will help and encourage people to use those points over three years. A lot of that is an accounting issue in terms of holding that liability for over three years. The accounts don't like to see that. 

Now, have we ever expired anyone's points? The answer is no. We work very hard that they're able to use their points and enjoy those points. Typically, we haven't seen people have any problems doing that. It's very easy if you travel at all. If you don't travel, if you bought a home, there's probably plenty of major purchases that you could use your points to help you with. Most of our clients are looking for ways they can earn more points.

Devon: Yes, well, that is very true of myself and people in the audience as well. I apologize for asking you so many questions. I'm so excited to learn so much more about this program. But one of the things that I was wondering is, is there a cap on the total number of points that you can earn, either for the sale or purchase of a single home? Or can you take advantage of this for multiple real estate transactions? 

Kipp: The answer is in order that you ask them, there's no limitation. If you buy, I don't know, I think the most expensive home in America was around $150 million. We would be excited to offer $50 million reward points, RBN rewards for that purchase. I can only imagine what you do with $50 million points. The limitations in terms of the condition on up to, and whenever I hear that, I'm somewhat cynical. I think okay, what's the catch? There is no catch. It just has to do with the commission structure of that transaction. 

Typically, when we see a house go into closing, if the co-broke, which is what the co-broke fee is, the commission that's going to be paid to the buying agent is or the selling commission is 3%, that equals a point per dollar, either side of that. So if it's a discounted commission structure in that transaction, then it'll be proportionate. There's no real catches on it. There's just proportionate. If you have a 2.75% commission, then that would be proportionately reduced from the 3%. 

Then the second part, you said, is there any cap on that? As I said before, there is no cap. That can go as high as the transaction is. We're excited the higher it is. We know our customers are excited as well. 

Devon: Now, I have a lot of people who are involved not only in purchasing real estate for their own use, for their primary use, but people who are also very active in real estate investing. Is it possible to participate in the RBN program not for the purchase or sale of a primary home, but for additional properties or investment properties? 

Kipp: Absolutely. We have several customers that are investors, real estate investors, and have purchased numerous homes in different markets with different real estate agents, and sometimes in the same market and with the same real estate agent. So there is no limitation. As many homes as you want to buy or sell through our service, using our real estate agents, they'll be delighted to take care of you. We will be delighted to issue those points to you. 

Devon: I think that is such a unique aspect of this program that not only is there no ultimate cap on the number of points that you can earn from any individual transaction, but the opportunity to have this also apply beyond just the purchase and sale of primary homes, primary residences, I think is going to be very appealing to a lot of people who are active in the real estate community.

But coming back to the really fun part of all of this, which is what we can do with these points that we've earned on a transaction that otherwise we probably wouldn't be able to earn any points on whatsoever. I wanted to compare sort of these three main points options to kind of what else is available out there right now. 

You had mentioned that the first redemption option is what you call self-serve, where someone gets the points from their transaction. I'm just going to use a very round number here. For example, let's say they earn a million points off of the purchase of their home. If they want to take advantage of this self-serve option where they just log in themselves online, like you said, they have a trip that they already know that they want to plan. Maybe it's flights and a hotel stay. They want to use their million points for that. 

How does the value or potential value of those million points in terms of the amount of travel they can book through the self-serve online platform, how does that compare to other online booking options right now with other points, currencies or programs? 

Kipp: Well, we have a lot of experience with American Express,  and our points are on par with their use in terms of value and the benefit. If you were to use, for example, an airline points to book an airline flight, reward miles or whatever, you would not earn reward miles on that flight. For our program, you can use reward points, book a flight with any airlines that has a reward program. If you're participating in that reward program, you will earn those reward miles and flight credit for your status.

We think that's a big benefit. Because in my prior life, I traveled an awful lot for business, and that travel status is really important. So much so that I remember at the end of the year, I would be traveling, and there would be someone traveling just to earn their next status, and they were just making up trips. I think turning around having lunch in some place, they had a cheap flight that counted for their status. At the end of the year, you have all these people that were searching for their higher status. 

In doing so, you are real hesitant to use the miles because you need that status. If you're close, you may not use the miles and pay. In this case, you can go ahead, not have to worry about it. You can use your reward points and still earn that travel status. 

Devon: Is there a ballpark value that you would estimate that someone with a million RBN points could expect to get from those points if they are utilizing this online self-serve travel booking option? 

Kipp: It's similar and on par to most major point programs. So roughly in what we call base value, the points are worth roughly a million points is about $10,000 worth of travel credit. Now, what we try to do is promote certain, a lot of opportunities to get extra value out of those points. It can go quite high. 

We have certain arrangements like on special requests that we can do a fairly deep discount that equals a higher point value. Obviously, on travel side, packages can get put together and promotions can get put together where you can stretch the value of those reward points. 

Devon: Yeah. So it sounds like to go through the self-serve option, that getting roughly one cent per point of value out of your RBN points, like you said, seems very equivalent to what you can expect if you're sitting on a pile of Chase points or Capital One points or Amex points, and you're going to redeem your points directly through your credit card travel account as well. So that feels like a very sort of comparable type of option for people with RBN points. 

But one of the unique things that you mentioned, if people don't necessarily want to go the self-serve option is the luxury travel advisor option for using their points. I love the way that you talked about this in terms of creating experiential travel. 

So for people who either want a little bit more assistance in creating an all-inclusive trip experience that they don't have to plan out themselves. But I'd love to hear, do you have any examples of some of the types of trips that people have put together with the help of a luxury travel advisor and use their RBN points to book or to at least partially fund?

Kipp: Well, yes. I think often related to my own experience, and for example, we love to go to the Bahamas. We go not to Nassau. We go to what we call the out islands where the real Bahamas are. Love the water, love the boating, love the fishing, love everything about the people and going into a small area. There's 700 islands in the Bahamas. 

But if you've never been, that would be daunting. I mean, where do you go? Where do you stay? What do you do? Luxury travel advisors can help you to make sure that that's not missed. Now, when I travel, I'm always hesitant to go place, like if I'm going to a beach, I'm always worried about going someplace new. Because what I don't want to do is spend a lot of money, spend time, go there, and then wish the whole time I was in the Bahamas. Because I didn't book the right place. We didn't do the right things. 

I think that's where luxury travel advisors. They really are there to try to minimize the chance that you're not going to have a really enjoyable trip. I think that types of expertise is really, really important. We've had clients, and I hear these stories all the time, but occasionally senior management gets involved because we have certain travel connections.

In one case, we had a couple that wanted to celebrate their anniversary. They  wanted to have a special dinner at a very special restaurant. We arranged a trip to Napa. We arranged their anniversary dinner to be at a three-star Michelin restaurant. They were able to use their points for that experience. Using the points for that experience was a great bonus. But just to be able to have that experience, to have the dinner at the restaurant, which is near impossible to get in. We had to pull a few strings to make that all happen. It was a lot of fun to do that for that couple. 

We had a family fishing trip to Alaska, lodge complete with a seaplane and the entire experience that they used their points for. One of the things we want to do is we want to start posting pictures from these trips that our customers are taking and then have a trip of the month and maybe award some extra reward points for that trip of what was the most amazing trip and create a community around, a little bit around this of reward travel and what we're able to do that differentiates us from any other travel experience. 

We've got, let's say, I told you about the engagement ring, but that wasn't travel. That was a special request. But the luxury travel, literally, they've done African safaris. They've done a personalized tour. One of the trips we set up was a personalized culinary tour of Spain. If you ever want to have a culinary tour, Spain is an amazing place to do it. 

Now, I'm a little bit partial to France. I spent my junior high and high school in France. But I got to tell you, the culinary experience I heard about from Spain, which also involved going to San Sebastian, which is one of the culinary capitals of the world, arranging three-star Michelin dinner. 

In that case, it was interesting because it was a very expensive trip, and they had points that covered most of it, but they were able to pay the balance in using, actually, another credit card, which they earned reward points on that. They earned reward points on the airline travel over there. So they were pretty happy campers. 

Although, oh, one of the things they did that was really fun that we heard about is personal chef in Barcelona. They went to the market in Barcelona with the chef. He picked out all the ingredients. He knew all the vendors, the fishmonger, whatnot, and they shopped with the chef. They went back to an apartment with a beautiful gourmet kitchen, and he prepared that whole meal for them as part of that experience. It was a lot of fun to hear about. 

Devon: I love hearing about those as well. I think that this particular option, the luxury travel advisor option, is really unique for RBN because there's a lot of people who are really enthusiastic about points and miles, end up developing skills and using their points to book their own airlines or to book their own hotel stays. 

But this opportunity to earn a points currency that then gives you access to booking experiences that are not traditionally available to us through our other points channels I think is a really important feature of this program. The idea that you can take your RBN points, and like you said, you can book experiences with chefs, you can book tours in different places that you're going, or you can book a travel experience that is not the typically available travel experience through the other points currencies I think is a really unique opportunity.

But I think the most unique points opportunity, because I don't know of any other option to do anything like this in the points world right now, is that third option of using RBN points, the special request option. So for folks who maybe don't want to use their RBN points for travel through the self-serve option or the luxury travel advisor option, what are some of the most interesting or some of the more unique special requests that RBN has received that people can actually turn their points earned from property sales and purchases into with this option? 

Kipp: Well, that's a great question. I need to start out with a somewhat of a disclaimer. We're not able to make miracles happen. Although there are some requests that we're not able to help people with for perhaps something that's not available, but that's unusual. We're usually able to work with them and find a great opportunity, negotiate a great use and value of the points that exceeds what we call our base value. 

I talked about the engagement ring. We have a great relationship with several different jewelers. We've done watches. There was a graduation watch we purchased for a family for their son who graduated from college. Now this generation never wears watches, which is amazing, the younger generation. So they were wanting him. They bought him his first watch graduating from college, which I thought at my age, that was really unusual. So that was a fun experience. It was a very nice watch they bought him, and I hope he enjoys wearing it. 

We have made and arranged deposits on cars. In one case, we were able to fund the entire one-year lease of a luxury car with points. Many times the points are a significant deposit. As we were working with some luxury brands, it created an exclusive opportunity with some preferred pricing. But those are things that are in the works and an awful lot of fun for us to work on because we have such a great customer base. They're sitting on average with well over a million points, and many are looking for creative ways to spend those points. 

We've done boring things like buy appliances and furniture and everything from jewelry to furniture to we've done a private jet charter for a family. We have done a one family was in the Caribbean on a sailboat charter with a captain and a wife that cooked and whatnot. They had a fabulous time around the Southern Caribbean islands. 

So those are some examples, but there's really no limit to some of them. That was actually luxury travel, and I apologize that wasn't it. That was a special request for luxury travel. 

Devon: You're allowed to include anything in here. That is totally fine.

Kipp: We've had this one, we've ordered a boat on behalf of a person and made that deposit for that ordered boat. I don't think that's been delivered yet, but I'm just thinking in while we're talking about boating. So whether it can be merchandise, there's really no limit on that. 

Devon: All right, everybody, you just heard there's really no limit. So you can start letting your imaginations run wild about the things that you would love to have a special request fulfilled in terms of merchandise or an item or an experience that you can use these points to book or to buy. 

Now, one of the last things that I wanted to cover before we wrap up today, Kipp, is that I noticed something really interesting on your website I was hoping that you could talk just a little bit more about. What I saw was a statement that said that starting in 2025, you'll be able to transfer RBN points to select hotel and airline loyalty programs. This really piqued my interest. I was hoping that you could speak a little bit more about what that might look like. 

Kipp: Well, I will say that's definitely in the works. When we announce, we want to make sure we have a collection of partners that's significant as opposed to just one or two. So these are major points transfer partners that you would expect. When we have all that completely nailed down with timing and there's integration and there's a lot of logistics involved, and we will, like I said, that's in the works, and we're excited to be able to make that announcement. 

Devon: All right, well, I will sit here remaining in suspense to find out who the airline and the hotel loyalty transfer partners of the RBN points will be. There's so many incredible ones out there and so many unique opportunities. So I think that that's going to be an enormous strength of this program when you guys roll that out. 

Now, last question for you today before we wrap up is what future enhancements or expansions can we expect from RBN? What are you most excited about the future of this program?

Kipp: Well, I think the most exciting thing for us is the developing partnerships with companies that offer luxury goods that want to have a special promotion for our membership. Honestly, we want people to use their points in our ecosystem. We want to make it more and more compelling for them to do that. 

Partnerships with luxury merchandise vendors or something as luxury, some partnerships may include home design services and things typically that people are spending money around home purchase, maybe landscaping services, maybe home design services, maybe furniture, national furniture, luxury furniture stores that offer a special benefit. We are negotiating special benefits for our members that increase the value of their points. Those are the things that we're focused on and really excited about launching in the future. 

Devon: Well, it's exciting to hear that the RBN program is continuing to iterate and to grow and expand. I think it already offers such a unique opportunity for folks to earn points and a significant amount of points. So the expansion of the options of what to do with those points, I think, is just a really exciting aspect of this program. 

Kipp, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for your time, for sharing more about the story of RBN, how it works for consumers and what people can gain from the program. Really appreciate all the time that you spent with me today. Thank you so much.

Kipp: Devon, thank you. I just want to reiterate. We've talked all about points, but I just think to myself, this all starts with a great referral for a great real estate agent. The biggest obstacle that we see that people have is it sounds too good to be true. I think it would be too good to be true if you didn't have a great real estate purchasing experience. We just want to end with that point that we began with. We really appreciate the opportunity of coming and spending some time with you.

Devon: All right, thank you so much. Thank you everybody for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. 

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Point Me to First Class. If you want more tips on turning your expenses into travel, visit pointmetofirstclass.com to learn more. See you next week.