17. P2 Strategies to Maximize Your Points with The Points and Miles Doc

Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel the world. I'm your host, Devon Gimbel, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest untapped asset if you know how to leverage them. Ready to dive into the world of credit card points and miles so you can travel more, travel better, and travel often? Let's get started.

Devon: Welcome back to the podcast everybody. Today I am joined by Kelly, the Points and Miles Doc. We are going to talk about points strategies when you have a points partner, commonly referred to as a P2 or player two in the points travel world. As with many things when it comes to earning and using points, there is no one right way to earn or use points when you have a points partner. 

So I thought it'd be fun to have Kelly joined me today so that we can talk about different ways to approach two-player mode and compare our P2 strategies. You all can get a look at what to consider in terms of building your best two-player rewards credit card portfolio. So Kelly, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Kelly: Hey, thanks so much for having me back. I always love chatting with you. I always learn something every time we interact. So happy to be back.

Devon: Me as well. This is really just my secret way of learning a bunch of stuff I don't already know from you. I will be taking notes as well. But let's just dive straight into this topic and talking about what a player two is or second player or P2 can be. 

So I know that in your line of work as a surgeon, you do a lot of unofficial points consults with your friends and your medical colleagues. So I'm sure people have come up to you before and asked what is a P2? What does that mean? Who can it be? So how do you explain to other people what a P2 is and who can even be your potential second player in the game of credit card points.

Kelly: One of my colleagues actually asked me what P2 meant. They thought it meant that I was a gamer, and my spouse was also a gamer, like literal player two and didn't really understand how that fit into my life. I said no, player two is part of the points and miles hobby and warmly referred to as player two. 

For me, player two is my spouse. I know lots of friends or colleagues who've worked together on a friends level, on just a collaboration level to work together on points and miles to help build their portfolio of points. I know some people include their children, are referred to as P3 or P4 or P5, however many you have of a certain age that can open credit cards or join loyalty programs. 

For me, it's always just been my spouse and kept pretty simple. But I guess I have to say on some of our cards, we do have our other family members, including parents, siblings. I'll explain a little bit more about how that fits into the strategy, but you can really use anybody that you trust as part of your points and miles hobby.

Devon: Yeah, and I think that's a great point. One of the reasons I was curious how you describe this to other people is because I think there is a common misconception around who a P2 can be. I think most of the time people assume that your second player, if you have one, has to be your partner or your spouse. While certainly a lot of us do have a partner or spouse who is our P2, the range of potential P2s is actually much broader than that. 

So it doesn't have to be someone who's living in the same house as you. You don't have to share a household address. Although if you do, there are some advantages to that. But as you were mentioning, essentially any other adult or someone who's eligible to sign up for, apply for, and get credit cards in their name can P2. So that can look like a sibling.

Like you said, it can look like an adult child. It can be a parent, both of your parents. It can be someone that you're not related to. Maybe you have a very close friend who you trust and who you have very good communication with where you want to be able to strategize with them in order to be able to earn and use credit card points. It can also be a business partner. If you're someone who owns and runs a business and potentially you do that with another person or other people, your business partner or a colleague can be your P2. So the range of people who can be your official or unofficial P2 in this game is actually very, very broad. 

But let's talk for a second about why would you even want a second player? What are some of the advantages of being in what is called two-player or as you mentioned, two plus player mode within the world of points and miles? What do you think personally are some of the advantages of having a player two when you think about the way that you earn and use points?

Kelly: In my case, having a player two or other extended players really just comes to the amount of diversity you can include in your points and miles strategy. That might be earning more points through referrals. It might be actually having different credit cards, which is what my spouse and I do as part of our strategy to really maximize what you're doing. 

In some cases, some cards, some banks allow you to pool points, especially if you live in the same household. So that can increase your points earning. So there's really lots of different ways to look at it. But as somebody who has a diverse portfolio of points and ways that I like to earn, that's how I really look at the strategy. The more people you extend or bring into your strategy, the more you can extend it, the more you can try new things and have a diversity of strategy. 

Devon: Yeah, I think about it in a very similar way. My P2, my second player, is my husband. He has always been a part of this whole points journey for me. Because when I first started learning about credit card points and really leveraging for travel, he and I had already been married for a couple of years. So he just automatically got roped into this entire. 

Kelly: As many of them do, whether willingly or unwillingly. 

Devon: I'm just going to say to varying levels of consent. But one of the things that I think about in terms of the value of having a second player is very similar to what you were talking about. I think about it in terms of number one, just amplifying your ability to earn points, even if you have completely shared finances. So sort of the same pool of expenses both of you are drawing on. 

Just having another person who's kind of in your realm or in your circle of points earning you mentioned is that one of the huge benefits of this is your ability to refer one another for rewards credit cards. Because many of the points earning credit cards will actually, if you currently hold that card and you refer someone else for it and they get approved for it. You as the referrer get rewarded with a certain amount of points, which is in addition to the sign on bonus that the person that you refer can potentially earn as long as they meet the signup bonus requirements.

So again, even if your partner is someone with whom you share all of your expenses, so they're not actually bringing any extra expenses to the table in terms of a points earning opportunity. Just having another person where the two of you can bounce off of one another so that one of you is always earning a referral bonus for any new rewards credit card that you get can actually be hugely valuable. 

Because a lot of these rewards credit cards, the referral bonuses are significant.  Not every single one of them, but a lot of them offer really, really great referral bonuses for referring someone to getting that rewards credit card. So this can be a not insignificant amount of extra points that you can earn when you are part of a partnership. 

The other thing that I think about in terms of what's really valuable about having a second player is that if you are in a situation where the person who is your P2 actually does have access to additional expenses outside of what the expenses are that you may share with them then that actually does open up another sort of huge arena of points earning that can be super, super valuable. 

That will not be the case for everybody. But when it is the case, again, it just allows you, as you mentioned, to sort of broaden not only sort of the number of credit cards that you can think about but it broadens sort of the expenses that you have access to in order to leverage in terms of earning points. 

So one of the things that I always tell people to keep in mind is that when you're thinking about oh, is there someone I would love to involve that I trust, again, to be my second player or a third player or fourth player really looking at what additional opportunities does that bring to the table in terms not only of additional people that you can have as referrers and referees for a lot of these bonuses, but also having access to sort of extra or additional expenses that you can really leverage. 

So I'm curious to hear from you since you mentioned that your P2 is your partner spouse. Do you all have completely shared personal finances or expenses? Or do you have some of those that are separate? How does that actually impact your sort of card acquisition or card using strategy?

Kelly: We have almost all of our finances shared. So one of the things that we do, and P2 will say what credit card do we put this expense on and things like that, especially for big expenses, but she has a completely different career outside of medicine. She travels a lot for work. She has completely different expenses that I'm not a part of when it comes to that work travel. 

That's really what our strategy revolves around is that in addition to these extra expenses, she also has these extra opportunities. She's doing long haul flights to Asia for work. She's staying in hotels much more frequently than somebody in medicine would. So we're really focusing on her earning in these arenas, which includes not only points learning but also status earning. 

So giving cards or having her have the cards that would improve her access to status or improve her chances of achieving status while I do more of the focus on bonus categories and everyday spend for my point strategy with twenty different cards. So it's very different. We do have access. I think a lot of families are like that, especially if you have a spouse that's not in medicine, or maybe has their own business or a separate business. There's lots of different expenses that might not just be part of your everyday bills that are combined. 

Then I think you mentioned the referral bonus portion too. That's a strategy for some families where they really just kick back and forth the referral bonuses over and over to each other. I think that's not something that you even need to do within families. I think even between friends who are interested in this hobby, you could kick referrals back and forth to each other as part of signing up for cards over time. So there's really lots of ways to do it. I think it depends on the person's career, what your relationship is, and how those points are going to be used or potentially pooled.

Devon: Yeah, absolutely. Can you talk a little bit more about how you said that your spouse, specifically because of their travel patterns, one of the things that you all do is really concentrate on for them some travel specific credit cards that maybe are not ones that you are going to sign up for because you're not traveling with the same exact pattern. 

So for the two of you, what do those cards look like for her? Are there specific airline or hotel credit cards that you all have really decided to focus on to leverage, like you said, specifically to be able to really use her travel patterns in order to earn a specific miles currency or to earn status in a certain program?

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. So for me, it's all the transferable currencies. I really, really value the transferable currencies. For her, she's always going to get high level status or very close to high level status just from her work, both with airlines and hotels. So for example, she flies American Airlines or One World Carriers. So we've really focused on American Airlines for her. Lucky us, now you can spend to get loyalty points, which adds to your status as opposed to previously where they call it butt in seat miles where you really have to be on the plane to get that status. 

So for example, she holds the American Airlines, I think it's the Executive Advantage card. That card is I think it's $450 a year. It might be $550 now. I haven't updated the most recent annual fee. The great thing about that card, it's not a great card for everyday spend. But every dollar you spend on it gets a loyalty point, and loyalty points add to status. 

The big benefit of this card that we use in particular is that you get access to Admirals Club lounges when you're traveling same day on AA. For the primary holder, she actually gets access into Alaska lounges when she's flying to Alaska. Sometimes she does fly that domestically. 

This can be extended to 10 authorized users on the card for zero extra dollars. So this is something where even though I don't put any spend on the card, I carry it because I always want access to an Admirals Club Lounge because we fly AA. This is something where we've made all of our parents and siblings authorized users on the card so that they can also have lounge access when they fly AA. That's been a really nice thing to provide to our family. They think it's a great perk, and for us, it doesn't cost any extra. 

The other card that she focuses on is the Marriott cards. So previously stayed with SPG all the time, which we loved that chain. Now transitioned, she was grandfathered into the Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant card, which now has increased the annual fee. So we're probably going to be changing that, but she kept a Marriott business card and a Marriott personal card to get elite night credits. 

So you get 15 elite night credits on the business card. 15 elite night credits on the personal card. That's now increased to 25 credits on the brilliant card. Those can be added together to get you closer to status. Because she has these two cards plus the amount of time that she actually stays in the hotels for work, she achieves titanium status every year. She achieves executive platinum status every year with AA. 

If she's ever going to be short, we have that card that we could put additional spend on at the end of the year to make sure we make up that difference. So that's where the cards really provide the value. So elite night credits and then using additional spend on these cards to get you that level two status can really be helpful. 

These are not cards we would tell anybody else to put spend on. Again, they're terrible for everyday spend, but they're really valuable for her line of work. Now, she's also somebody. I've seen this in the group. Like P2 doesn't want to participate or doesn't want to open 20 cards. That's probably normal. I don't think it's a bad thing if your partner or spouse or your chosen P2 doesn't want to open that many cards, that's totally fine. You can pick a couple of cards that are going to be high impact for them and high impact for your family. 

She's seen this game through and through. She knows what it has brought us. She totally knows the benefit and the math. But emotionally, she still just doesn't want that many cards. That's totally normal. So using those cards for her, the Marriott and the AA cards, knowing that we're going to be separating out our expenses, mostly on the transferable currencies, but we use those to her benefit for the perks and the extra spend.

Devon: Yeah, I think that's such a great example of talking about types of rewards credit cards, where especially when you are part of a partnership where it might actually make much more sense for one person to hold certain credit cards rather than to think about both of the partners independently going out and getting that same credit card. 

We kind of have the mirror image situation in our family, where I do a lot more solo travel than my husband does. So usually what travel in our family looks like is either me traveling solo or us traveling together mostly as a family, he and I and our two kids together. 

So when I look at the specific airline or hotel credit cards that we kind of hold as a couple, really those are all primary accounts for me. The reason that we do that is because oftentimes unless both partners of a partnership, again, whether it's a marriage, romantic partnership, or just a partnership that you are having with someone for the express purpose of earning and using points. IS that if both partners are not both traveling a lot or traveling equally, then oftentimes it does not make sense for both partners to hold those airline and hotel specific credit cards. 

But in our case, it makes sense for me to hold some of them because number one in terms of loyalty, as you mentioned, I do intentionally leverage a significant amount of my expenses and my spend inside of my business, specifically on the World of Hyatt business credit card because I value, personally, having globalist status for myself. So that then whether I'm traveling by myself or we're traveling as a family, we as a family all get to enjoy that globalist status that I hold that I get in part from putting spend on my World of Hyatt business credit card. 

It's kind of the same thing with the airline specific credit cards that I hold. I describe myself as being incredibly hotel loyal, but very airline promiscuous or polyamorous. I have no loyalty whatsoever to airlines. Based on where I live in the country basically whenever we're flying, if we're going to pay for a flight with cash, I'm just looking at what's the most convenient flight for me to take based on the timing if I'm with my kids in terms of minimizing number of connections, and just what is going to be the most economical flight if I'm paying out of pocket cash for. So I have zero loyalty when it comes to airlines. 

But I still think that it can make sense to hold an airline specific credit card, specifically either because you are looking for status within a program if you are loyal to a program. Even if you're not loyal to a specific airline program, I still personally get tremendous benefit from having airline specific credit cards because of some of the perks and the benefits that they offer. 

Things like having priority access when you check in so that you can go into a different line where you don't have to wait behind 300 other people all waiting to check their bags, or you get free checked bags, or priority boarding. These types of things that if you value can be really great perks and benefits that you get with an airline specific credit card. 

But my husband, he only has one airline specific credit card. The reason we got that for him was it was years ago, and it was having like a highest ever sign on bonus. So we thought for the purpose of getting the sign on bonus points, that was worthwhile for him. But other than that he's never held airline or hotel specific credit cards because his travel patterns don't make sense for both of us to hold those within our family.

So I think one of the things that you can think about when you're part of a two-player team or thinking about your strategy is exactly what you mentioned, Kelly, which is that is there some aspect of either our particular expenses or our particular travel patterns that really makes sense for one of us to hold certain credit cards that it doesn't make as much sense for the other person to hold.

So that's one of the things that I think is really useful to think about when you are developing your two-player strategy is knowing that you don't have to have the same exact credit cards as your partner. There're going to be certain instances where it makes a lot of sense for one of you to hold certain credit cards that don't make sense at all for the other one of you to hold. 

Because with a lot of the cards that we're talking about, they do come with annual fees. Some of them may be on the lower side, and I consider lower to be like $100 or less a year. Some of them are much, much higher than that right. So this isn't, for a lot of us, a free for all in terms of just get all the rewards credit cards that exist because you do have to factor into the cards that you're going to hold, especially on a long term basis. Essentially what are the carrying costs of hanging onto those cards in terms of the annual fees?

So that's one thing that you do want to keep in mind. Because, of course, the benefit of having two people is that you have more options of cards, more opportunities to earn sign on bonuses and referral bonuses. The downside is the more cards you have between the two of you potentially, the more annual fees you're also going to be carrying. So you definitely want to take that into consideration and into account. 

Now, you mentioned a little bit about how your wife is sort of focused on some of these areas of airline and hotel points or currencies that are not ones that you are primarily focused on as much given just your different travel patterns and your spend patterns. But outside of those airline and hotel specific accounts, I'm curious. Do you both have cards that are in the same sort of flexible or transferable points currency ecosystems? Or do you concentrate on earning different points currencies?

Kelly: Yeah, we really concentrate on earning different points currencies. Just like you said, for a lot of the transferable cards, you're looking at high annual fee cards. It really doesn't make sense to duplicate those among two people. It can make sense to pay an annual fee, and you can really get the value back for one card. But when you add in two, you have to ask yourself, am I really maxing out all of these benefits?

So for example, for a while both of us had the Amex Platinum Personal Card, and I probably made her sign up for a large signup bonus. But when we come to the end of the year, and we look at the credits we were actually using, it's really hard to think that it's worthwhile to pay $695 times two and actually get the benefits out of it. It probably makes much more sense to have one. Even though the authorized user is a fee, have the other person as an authorized user. 

So I know there's a lot of talk about well, you don't want to add authorized users because it adds to 5/24, but I actually think it can make a lot of sense, especially if you have different strategies for how you're spending. If you want to share those transferable currencies with the other partner then make them an authorized user, but have them really concentrate on their strategy. 

Just like you said, if you're traveling as a family or your travel habits are such that you're always going to be traveling with another person, then you should focus the status on that one person. You should focus the benefits on that one person. Because naturally, if you're traveling with them, you're going to get the same benefits. You're going to get the priority. You don't need to duplicate status amongst both people if you're always traveling or mostly traveling together. 

A lot of the airline cards, I actually think, can make a lot of sense for those who don't have status because they offer the benefits that come with status. Like you said, the priority access, the free check bags, usually you're in a higher level group so you get to board earlier. You get free seat selection sometimes. These things can be really high value. Well, if you're traveling in a family, again, just concentrate that benefit and that perk for one person, and then it extends to the entire family.

Devon: Yeah, absolutely. So I love that example that you gave where both of you at least at one point were carrying a personal American Express Platinum Card. I completely agree with you that it probably, for a lot of people who are in two-player mode, that that's an example of a card that, at least in my opinion, it oftentimes does make sense for each individual to get at some point because American Express at least recently, like the last year or two has just been offering sky high signup bonuses for so many of their cards. 

That I think this is the benefit of being in P2 mode is that if you currently hold a card that then starts offering a really high or a one-time elevated signup bonus and you can refer your partner, it can make a lot of sense for them to get the same card that you hold as a as a primary card holder so that you, as a couple, again, can benefit from both of you earning a sign on bonus that can be very, very lucrative. 

So I think that's a perfect example of a card where the strategy can be the card itself is not one that you both envision holding on to and using for the long term. But because, as adults, you can each sign up for and each earn the signup bonus for that same card, it can make a lot of sense to do that within a couple. 

But I'm curious to hear from you, aside from that scenario, right, where you know you're signing up or one of you is signing up for a card that you're not going to hold for the long term, specifically so that you can leverage earning that really high signup bonus. Are there any rewards credit cards where both of you have that same card as a primary holder that you do hold for the long term? How do you think about when it makes sense for you each to independently have the same rewards credit card and hold on to it year after year?

Kelly: Just looking at, I have a Word document with all of our credit cards on it and annual fees. It just helps me keep track to make sure that we're getting value out of our cards. I actually think at this time there is no transferable currency card that we both hold that's the same. It's certainly overlapped at points like the Amex Platinum, the Chase Ink Business Preferred. Then we realize one of us is using it more than the other, and one of us is getting the value out of it and the other person isn't. 

So when you decide to sign up for a card is a really different strategy than if you decide to keep a card for the long term. I know I would say part of our strategy too, because I mentioned 5/24, is always keep P2 under 5/24. So when those great signup bonuses come along, and we would like to take advantage of them, we have taxes coming up. We want to meet a large signup bonus. 

Then she is available to open that card and take advantage of that signup bonus, whereas I don't mind being over 5/24. I'm frequently over 5/24 because I've been taking advantage of so many of those high level American Express signup bonuses. So I can really focus on those. Then when the high value Chase ones come along, we can evaluate what that means to open for her. 

Then after the signup bonus hits, after the first year, of course, decide in the long term whether that makes sense. If something has a low annual fee or no annual fee, from my standpoint it always makes sense to keep it open because you keep your credit limit and it adds to your credit score over time. But that's really how we look at it from the value proposition of signing up versus the value proposition of keeping it long term. Long term we have not found an overlap in the transferable currencies for us.

Devon: Okay, I'm so glad that this is an area where you and I are not doing the same thing. Because one of my fears as I was telling you when you and I first jumped on this call was I was really hoping that we did not have identical strategies and thoughts about this because I think there's nothing that's super useful about just hearing two people echo each. 

Kelly: We say that we're both right.

Devon: Exactly, exactly. So I am super happy that this is an area where kind of what I have ended up doing looks different than what you have ended up doing. Not, of course, that either one is right or wrong or good or bad. But this is why I think it's so helpful to hear different ways of thinking about and approaching this so that people can decide oh, what works best for my personal situation?

So there are certainly instances where yes, my husband and I have, at the same time, held the same rewards credit card. But kind of when you were talking about the American Express Platinum Card where our intention was never to both hold it for the long term. So we've kind of discussed that, but I do think, at least for us, there have been situations where it makes sense for both of us to independently sign up for the same rewards credit card and continue to hold it and use it year after year. 

So I'm going to talk a little bit about what that situation looks like for us in case it is relevant and useful for other people. But I think there are some rewards credit cards that have sort of the traditional bonus categories of have three times points on a certain category of spend or two times points on a certain category of spend. 

Oftentimes, I think it makes sense for one person in a partnership to hold that specific credit card. It doesn't make sense necessarily for both partners to hold it, but there are some rewards credit cards where the bonus categories themselves are capped at a certain amount of spend. Right? So when I was looking through the cards of wow, what are the cards that my husband and I have both held now for a long time, or for at least more than a year so that we're willing to pay that annual fee more than once each.

I was looking at why do we do that. A, either to figure out oh maybe we shouldn't, and one of us should change or you know get rid of one of these cards. But also when does it make sense for both partners to be a primary card holder on the same exact credit card? 

What I was really seeing when I looked at our kind of overall family credit card portfolio are the cards that we each have, so duplicate cards, and that I feel okay about continuing to spend the annual fee on is oh it's a lot of these cards are ones where they have a cap on the number of bonus points you can earn in a certain category, and our spending is such that if we both hold the card we can actually take advantage of that increased sort of amount of bonus points available to us. 

So I'll give just two examples of this. One of them is actually a no fee card. So this is a card that I think for partnerships can actually make a ton of sense for both partners to hold. That's the Chase Freedom Flex card. So this is a card that is technically a cash-back card, but if you hold one of the Chase Sapphire Personal credit cards, or if you hold a Chase Ink Business Preferred card, the cash-back or “points” that you earn on a Chase Freedom Flex card can actually be transferable Chase points, which are very, very valuable. 

The way that the Chase Freedom flex card works is that every quarter, so obviously there's four quarters in a year. Every quarter, there are defined bonus categories that end up changing. Within that quarter, you get to earn five times points for that bonus category. So sometimes it's something like grocery stores, which Chase doesn't usually offer really good bonus points for with any of their other cards. Or it can be Amazon, or it can be spend through PayPal. So five times points, the ability to earn five times Chase points on these rotating categories is incredibly valuable. 

But there is a limit to that. That yes, that is where I think, especially for people who have what I consider to be healthy or high spend for a long time, I actually thought the Chase Freedom flex card wasn't worth my using a Chase 5/24 spot on because every quarter, you get five times points on spending that bonus category, but it caps out at $1,500 spent. So especially for a category like Amazon depending on what quarter of the year it is. I mean, fortunately or unfortunately based on how you look on it, my family can blast through $1,500 spend in far less than three months. 

So for me for a long time, I actually didn't hold a Chase Freedom Flex because honestly, the patterns of our spend were such that for us to max out at $1,500 of spend earn five times points on that category each quarter, it just wasn't worth it for me when to keep track of those rotating categories, to use a Chase 5/24 slot on that. But when each partner can actually hold that card, that means that for my husband and I we actually do both have a Chase Freedom flex now is that each quarter then we each have that $1,500 five times bonus points allocation that's available to us.

So to me, it makes sense if you do have a rewards credit card that offers a really valuable bonus category, but it has a cap on the spend. As a partnership, you can and would want to exceed that cap on spend. Then it can make sense for both people to independently hold that card. So that's one example for us. I think especially because it is a no fee credit card that can be one where it makes sense either for you and your partner to hold it or potentially for you each to hold several of those. 

I'm not gonna go into detail today about what that would look like, but I will dive into that on a future podcast. But another card honestly that my husband and I both hold and that we have held each of us more than a year, specifically because of this ability for both of us to take advantage of a cap on points earning, is we do each both hold a personal American Express Gold card. 

The reason for that is that the Amex Gold card has an amazing bonus category, which is four times points on grocery spend, but that grocery spend is capped to earn four times points. It's capped at $25,000 of spend a year. I know a lot of people might be thinking well holy crap. I can't imagine spending $25,000 or more a year on groceries, but I do think that there are some families where you will be exceeding that amount. 

One scenario is just if you have a lot of people in your family, or if you have a high grocery bill. A lot of people live with their extended family. Maybe you're the primary person who's purchasing groceries for not only your partner or your children, but maybe your parents or other people live with you. So you do have high grocery spend. 

So if that's the case, I think it can make a lot of sense for both people in a partnership to have their own primary credit card account so, again, you both have access to that $25,000 limit for four time spend or whatever the case may be for the different credit cards that we're talking about. 

The second sort of scenario why this makes sense for us is because I don't think that we eat our way through $25,000 in groceries spend on a yearly basis. My kids are still pretty little. So they don't have huge appetites, even though they go through about seven pounds of strawberries a week. But what we do leverage a lot is the ability to buy store specific gift cards within a grocery store which does count towards that $25,000 spend. 

So for us what that looks like is we will sometimes buy Amazon gift cards at the grocery store or Target gift cards or other specific stores where we are anticipating spend. So when we factor that into our grocery spend, as a family we can spend more than $25,000 a year at a grocery store because that is something that really allows us to earn a lot of American Express points. 

So if we're buying gift cards for kid’s birthday parties. Even if it's small, it's $25 here or $50 there. Again, over the course of a year, those things can really add up. So he and I have continued to build have our own American Express Personal Gold card so that we each have access to four times earning points on up to $25,000 of spending at grocery year. 

So one of the things that I think it's really useful to think about when you do have a second player is oh, are there credit cards where it makes sense for both of us to independently hold and continue to hold this card so that we can leverage those sort of capped bonus categories? So the only other situation that I can think of off the top of my head where I think this makes a lot of sense. 

Then I would love to hear if you have anything to add because I'm wondering if some other light bulbs are going off in your head as I'm talking about this. There are also some credit cards that offer the primary account holder some really useful perks or benefits that, again, I think can be useful if there are two or more people for everyone to have access to that. I'm thinking specifically about hotel credit cards that offer something like a free night certificate every year.

So maybe you're not holding a hotel specific credit card because you personally want to put enough spend on that card to earn status, but it can make sense, again if you're a family and you travel together if both partners are both people hold a hotel specific credit card that offers something like a free night certificate every year then you can really kind of leverage some of those benefits and use those in tandem. 

So I think that that can make sense for both partners to hold World of Hyatt personal credit card that offers one free night certificate a year so that you can essentially duplicate some of those benefits if both of you independently hold a card. But what do you think about that, Kelly, in that approach now that you've kind of heard what my family does and why we've done things the way that we have done things over the past couple of years.

Kelly: No, I think you gave some great examples. The Amex Gold in particular has high value for a lot of people, but you really bring up an excellent point about caps on bonus categories. How it's always really important to know if there is a capital limit. Because $25,000 a year on groceries sounds like a lot, but when you break it down, it's only around two grand a month and or $500 a week. For some people, that's the reality, especially if they have a couple of kids who eat a lot. I mean seven pounds of strawberries a week will easily get you to 25 grand a year. 

So I think it makes a lot of sense there with the credits most people can get really outsized value with that card. I'm also thinking about the Amex Blue Business Plus, which is two times points on everything, but only up to $50,000. I say only, but if you have a business or if you have really high expenses like a lot of physicians or hire earners do, you might need several of those cards to go through over the year to really max that out. So I think that makes a lot of sense. 

I think the question I have for you, in return to learning about your strategy, is how does your P2 feel about separating expenses by bonus categories? Are they totally into it? Did it take some time to get them into it? Or is it something that you still control and say now we're switching to your card for the groceries? How do you keep track of that and balance that? 

Devon: Yeah, I think that's such a great question. So my P2, I would describe him as very much willing but perhaps not enthusiastic. Like he is fully willing to go along with pretty much any scheme that I come up with as long as I am willing to communicate with him kind of what is the plan. 

So the way that it works for us in general is that I label his credit cards because that's useful for him. I will literally put a sticker on his credit card so that it's easy for him to track. Okay, what is the credit card that I use at the grocery store, what is the credit card I should use for a certain type of spend? Then that's really what we concentrate on. 

What I have found is that one of the things that really helped us is, I think, when you do have a partner, especially one who is totally willing to be able to follow your lead in this, but maybe isn't ever going to be the person who like takes a lot of ownership over it. That is totally, totally fine. Right. I think one of my philosophies that has I think worked well for us because we don't fight about like bonus categories or like you forgot to put the landscaping charge on the whatever card is that we're not perfectionist about it. 

Like I really do think that over the course of a year or two years, we have a lot of opportunities to earn points in different ways. So I mean, great example right now is that I've actually stolen my husband's physical American Express Gold card because he got to take advantage of the promotion that is actually ending as of today, the day that we're recording, where he was able to refer someone, not me because I already had the card. But he was able to refer someone for the card. 

As part of his referral bonus is a three month period where instead of earning four times points on grocery spend with his card, he's actually earning nine times points. So because of that specific promotion period, we have actually been toggling back and forth and sharing his American Express Gold card, specifically for our grocery spend since that promotion is so generous in terms of the bonus points. 

So I had ruthlessly stolen his card because I tend to do kind of runs to the grocery store, or I'll order Instacart if we're in a real pinch online. Today was an unusual day where he had a little bit of a break in his schedule. He went over to our local grocery store to pick some things up, and I literally came out of my office when I heard him come in the house just to say hey what did you end up picking up? The first thing he said to me was I didn't have the American Express Gold card. You have my gold card. He's like I just spent $100 on groceries, and I didn't have the Gold Card. Right? 

I mean here's the thing. Like is it great to get nine times points on that grocery spend? Of course. When we're kind of doing this thing where we're passing a card back and forth between the two of us, or if one of us is traveling and doesn't bring every single credit card under the sun that we hold, are we going to sometimes miss out on some points earning opportunities? Yeah, of course we are. My philosophy is like okay, and that's not the end of the world, right? 

Because, again, in the grand scheme of things, we have so many points earning opportunities that I think it's not worth it to me to either nitpick him or even get nitpicky with myself about oh, well this time, I didn't bring this one specific card in my wallet. So that's an approach that has worked for us. 

So all I can say is that if you do have a partner, and you are the one who's the more, shall we say enthusiastic person in terms of the points in earning is to be willing to give yourself and your partner a little bit of grace when things don't go perfectly or you don't use the “right” card for something. I don't think that there's ever so big a situation that is worth having a fight about it or getting really upset and frustrated about it. 

That being said, maybe I'm just very fortunate in that my partner hasn't done anything that I consider to be so points egregious that we actually have an argument about it. But we've been doing this together for eight or nine years. So I think that that's played out pretty well for us so far. 

Kelly: No, thanks for saying that. I think people need to hear that. Don't beat yourself up. Not every spend is going to be absolutely optimized to the tee. There's going to be some mistakes. It's okay. You don't need to undo them. It's not a tragedy if you're a P2 is not 100% on board with every single transferable currency and every bonus category. 

Just last month, I realized I went to a conference, and I booked the hotel through the conference website. So initially, I was thinking it wouldn't be flagged as travel. So I just put it on the Chase Ink Business Unlimited for 1.5 times points. Then realized when I saw it on my statement, it was coded as travel. I could have gotten three times points. Oh well. Even eight years in you can still make a mistake or not know how something is going to code, and that's okay in the long run. 

As long as you and your partner or whoever you're playing this game with have a little bit of a shared vision about what it does for you. If they can, even if they don't want to participate, if they recognize the importance and ask you questions about bonus categories and things like that, I think you know that you're on the same page, and it's going to work out really, really well. They're going to be willing participants as opposed to unconsenting participants.

Devon: Yeah, I think that that is such a great consideration to have. One of the things that I feel like I kind of tell people a lot. I'm curious if you have the same philosophy, and then we can talk about how this factors into a P2 strategy is for the most part. I tend to tell people don't automatically add your partner as an authorized user to every single new account that you open and vice versa. 

I think for people who are what I consider to be regular, like not within the world of points and miles. I think what makes a lot of sense is that if you open up a new credit card, a lot of times you will reflexively make your partner or your spouse the authorized user. I think for people outside of points and miles travel, that makes a lot of sense. It's very streamlined. It's very simple. 

But within the points and travel world, oftentimes I advise people not to do that. One of the biggest reasons is that it will impact something you and I have kind of already referred to a little bit on this talk, which is your Chase 5/24 score. Which essentially just to make it very simple for people is that Chase is one of the more strict banks when it comes to approving you for new rewards credit cards. If you have applied for or if you have opened five or more new credit card accounts in the prior 24 months, they pretty much, across the board, just won't approve you for any new credit cards. 

Now there are always like little asterisks and exceptions and all of these things. But one of the main reasons that I tend to tell people don't reflexively make your partner an authorized user on any new account you open and vice versa is because authorized user accounts can impact your 5/24 score and just make it more challenging for you to work with Chase in terms of getting approved for new Chase credit cards. 

But I'm curious if you think that there are scenarios where it actually does make sense for you or your partner to add yourself or the other one as an authorized user on one of your credit cards? Are there credit cards that you and your partner currently hold where one of you is an authorized user on that card? What goes into your decision making about when and does it make sense to add each other as an authorized user? 

Kelly: Yeah, I agree with you that you don't want to reflexively make your partner an authorized user. You want it to be deliberate. I think there's a few reasons when it can make sense. One is if their partner is going to get outsized benefit from having the card. So, for example, on the American Express card where you get your Admiral’s Club access. I also think it can make sense if you're physically going to be in different locations or actually you spend a lot of time physically in different locations, and you need to put spend into the same account, say to meet a signup bonus. 

P2 and I had an example last year where she was staying in IHG hotels for work for the first time. Because of this, I wanted to get her level of status. So we signed up for the IHG, I think, called Premier card. So in the same time she was about to leave, she got the card. She's traveling. She's going to be in Asia for a couple of weeks. We also wanted to start working on the signup bonus. I had some expenses here at home, some house expenses that were coming up that also needed to go on the card. 

In that instance, for me, it felt like it made sense to go ahead and make myself an authorized user even though I wasn't going to necessarily get some perks out of the card. She was going to get the perks of the card be attached to her new IHG account to get excess points. But then I was going to be able to contribute to the signup bonus, even while we were in separate places. That might be a rare example for some scenarios. But say your P2 is not part of your family. Maybe you are physically in different locations. 

So I think you just really want to be deliberate about it. You also need to know if the card that you're getting an authorized user on is going to charge you for that. You have to calculate that in against the charge of an annual fee and maybe that person having their own card. Because a lot of the transferable currency cards, especially the high value, the premium ones, are going to charge you for having an authorized user. So you really don't want to take that lightly. You want to add that into the overall value analysis of what you're opening.

Devon: That's an absolutely great point. I think that scenario you're talking about where maybe for a period of time you are in different physical locations from your partner where it does actually benefit you both to have a physical copy of that credit card to be able to be putting spend on, that can make so much sense. 

When I think about the cards that even after kind of getting into points and miles, we have decided slash I have decided and informed my husband, and he's been totally fine with it. That like one of us should be an authorized user on another one of our accounts is that there are some rewards credit cards that I think we use very, very frequently in terms of everyday spend where actually the signup bonus isn't that strong. So there's not for us a huge incentive for the other person to go ahead and get their own version of that card. 

One of those that I'm thinking about is actually the Chase Freedom Unlimited card, which for the most part, it does have a signup bonus, but it's not huge. It's not one of those ones that we think about in terms of just like this enormous points earning opportunity for a sign on bonus. But that is an everyday workhorse points earning card for my family because of its ability to earn 1.5 times Chase points on any spend that doesn't fall within a traditional bonus category for another card. 

So that's a card that I actually had held as a primary user and I added my husband as an authorized user, again, so he could have his own physical copy of that credit card to be able to use for that kind of everyday spend. So I think that if there's a credit card that doesn't offer a huge signup bonus and is one that you anticipate, kind of like you were saying, both partners really being able to benefit from having a physical copy of that card because you use it frequently enough that you don't kind of want to pass one physical card between the two of you. I think that can make a lot of sense for one of you to add the other as an authorized user.

You also kind of touched on this idea that there are scenarios where an authorized user can actually really benefit on their own from having an authorized user credit card. I think that that is a scenario where it would make sense where maybe they wouldn't benefit going out and getting that credit card on their own, but they do benefit from being an authorized user. 

An example of that, this is not a card that I hold, but that I think is a great example of this is the Capital One Venture X card. So if someone is a primary holder of the Capital One Venture X card, and say their partner doesn't also want to go out and independently apply for that card. If you make your partner an authorized user, then the authorized user gets some potentially very valuable benefits.

Which specifically for that card, I'm thinking of like the lounge access. So the authorized user has the same exact lounge access as the primary holder. So even if they're traveling on their own with their authorized user card, they're still gonna have access to the Capital One lounges or the Priority Pass lounges. That can be very valuable for the authorized user to have. Again, if they don't think that they're going to get the value of having to pay an annual fee to have their own card. I think that's one example. 

Then another example where I do think it can make sense, especially when you are in two-player mode, to consider having a partner be added as an authorized user to a card or vice versa is specifically within the American Express membership rewards points earning credit cards. The reason for this is that every single one of the flexible or transferable points currencies, they have their own rules around if you're allowed to combine points with another person or transfer your points to another person's either credit card account or airline or hotel loyalty account. 

American Express does not allow you to formally combine your Amex points with your partner or your spouse or household member’s Amex account. There's just, they don't allow it. There's no function for me to take my American Express points and shove them together with my husband's or steal his, which is what I usually do it just points currencies, just shove them all into my account. American Express doesn't allow you to do that. 

But what they do allow you to do is that if you have an authorized user on your American Express points earning credit card, as long as they've been an authorized user on your account for 90 days or more, then you can take your own American Express points, and you can transfer them into the specific airline or hotel loyalty account of your authorized user.

So, for example, I can take my American Express points, and I can move them into the Air France Frequent Flyer account of my husband so that if he's going to travel on his own and he needs to book a flight out of his own account, he can do that, and vice versa. So I do think specifically, when it comes to American Express, it can make sense to have your partner or spouse. 

They only have to be an authorized user on one account. So you don't need to add them as an authorized user on every single American Express rewards credit card that you have, but it can make sense for each of you. I'm assuming you're in a two-player situation. It can make sense for each person to be an authorized user on just one American Express points earning card for the other one. 

So what do you think about that? Does it do you disagree with anything I said? Please feel free to tell me where I'm wrong. Because I could definitely be in the way that you think about kind of structuring these kinds of relationships in terms of authorized user.

Kelly: No, that's a huge thing to point out is that for transferable points currencies, can you pool them with other people or can you not pool them? With Amex, you're right. You have to have that authorized user relationship to be able to take the points and pool them together into a loyalty program. You still can't connect your Amex accounts, but you can pull them into a single loyalty program. So that's what we did when we decided that the Amex Personal Platinum didn't have enough value for us to each individually pay $695 a year. 

This was also the time when Centurion lounge access was going away for guests, and you have to have your own card. It can be an authorized user card, but you had to have your own physical card to get into the club. So this is when we decided it made sense to only have one primary Amex Personal Platinum Card, make me the authorized user on that card is $175 annual fee. 

But again, together, we felt that the value was such we could use the credits effectively to get value out of that card. Then we both had access into the Centurion lounge, we both had access essentially to the same point pool, and then could pool the points together into our loyalty programs. So I think in that regard, it does make a lot of sense.

It might make less sense for the premium Chase cards, for example, since you can already pool those together, and you might get more outsized value just from having the card itself. But with Amex, there's just no way to connect them. Some people might be disappointed to find that out because you can't use the full benefit of your points if they're completely siloed and isolated. But if you have a mechanism to pull them together, it's really powerful.

Devon: Yeah, that has definitely been my experience and especially the more people that I have worked with who are in partnerships where they are accumulating points together, that's one of the things that I've seen is really important to keep in mind in terms of when you are strategizing. Of course, to me, there's no point in earning points if we're never going to use them. 

So when you do get to that time, when you're ready to start actually using your points, that can be a very frustrating time to find out, especially if you do have something like American Express points that oh lo and behold you have points that are siloed off into two different people's accounts. There's no way for you to effectively combine them or effectively use them together. 

So you want to learn about those things before it comes time to actually want to be doing something with your points. So thank you for adding that. That's so helpful. As we wrap up today, I am just curious if you have any kind of last words of advice for people who are thinking about or do have already a second player who's with them in terms of points earning? Is there one thing that you think is really useful for people to keep in mind when they are working with a second player in terms of earning their points?

Devon: I think what we've touched on already, which is you don't have to have exactly the same strategy. Having extra or additional players allows you to expand and diversify your strategy. Then also, a lot of our spouses, partners, friends, children are not going to be as enthusiastic or spend the time that we do learning every detail about this hobby or this sport that we might call it, and that's totally okay. I think you can bring other people in slowly. You can show them what you're doing. 

I think it's also really important to show people that it's not damaging to your credit score. There can be a lot of hesitation about opening cards. You want to make sure that your partner feels really comfortable as they're participating. That you're not really pushing them to a level where they feel uncomfortable. Show them how it works. 

Then over time, they'll get comfortable, and you'll grow together in your strategy. But really look at it. Like there's so much potential when you have another person. It's like you can have a completely different strategy with that person and just add to what you're already doing.

Devon: Yeah, well, I completely agree with you. That's why I'm so thankful that you joined me on the podcast today because I knew that you would have some really incredible words of wisdom and contribution in terms of this idea about thinking about how you personally I'd like to strategize knowing that you have a second player for your points earning. So thank you, once again, for joining me today. As always, it is so much fun for me to talk with you, and I can't wait for the next time that you join me on the podcast and we talk about another points topic for everybody.

Kelly: Thanks so much for having me. 

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Point Me to First Class. If you want more tips on turning your expenses into travel, visit pointmetofirstclass.com to learn more. See you next week.